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Neil Ferguson - is this Too good to be true?

437 replies

LilacTree1 · 05/05/2020 19:34

Resigns after breaking the lockdown?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/05/exclusive-government-scientist-neil-ferguson-resigns-breaking/

OP posts:
Derbygerbil · 06/05/2020 11:06

Some of his previous modelling has also been incorrect. It puzzles me why some posters defend a model that they know nothing about that other experts have questioned

I’ve not studied his models, and have no vested interest in whether they are right or wrong. I’d love it if his projections were a massive over-estimate as we could get back to normal
sooner! However, unfortunately the direct evidence from those places where Covid has been able to impact on a significant proportion of the population shows that his 250,000 projection wasn’t wide of the mark at all...(see my previous posts on Bergamo and NYC).

Indeed, it was his projections that led to Patrick Valance suggesting that 20,000 deaths was a reasonable outcome - that’s already been comfortably exceeded!

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2020 11:08

Smile We are not in lockdown because of Ferguson & his model
and certainly the rest of the world isn't

fwiw, I have posted on other threads that I am wary of a model that was written for flu pandemics being used for CVID,
which has different characteristics and needs different asumptions

imo however, Ferguson now serves only as a distraction

He became a figure of hate to divert the anger of those opposed to lockdown
... rather than directing their anger against the government who chose to take the decision

He is a very convenient fallguy
-because a government in deep recession will soon need one - or more
Whitty, Valance and the rest of SAGE must be looking over their shoulders

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2020 11:15

"it is reported that the Imperial model did influence the US and Germany"

I live in Germany
It was our own experts who recommended lockdown, because of what was happening in Italy

Also, as in the UK:

People were already keeping kids home from school, teachers were staying home;
People were avoiding restaurants and gyms - and even a large minority doing this makes a business no longer profitable
e.g. My NDN reported before lockdown, the cancellation of all the large catering events that made most of his profits - because firms won't risk making large numbers of workers sick

So the government had little choice but to impose lockdown, because - as in the UK - an economy can't continue as normal when a substantial minority have already opted to stay home

chomalungma · 06/05/2020 11:18

He became a figure of hate to divert the anger of those opposed to lockdown

And convenient timing - when we broke 30,000

I wonder what news will come out when we have 40,000 deaths

chomalungma · 06/05/2020 11:19

People were already keeping kids home from school, teachers were staying home;People were avoiding restaurants and gyms - and even a large minority doing this makes a business no longer profitable

Indeed.

People were seeing the news. The papers were reporting daily deaths.

They were seeing the pictures from Italy.

chomalungma · 06/05/2020 11:22

One thing about this - God knows I hate The Sun newspaper - but it's one hell of a funny headline

Neil Ferguson - is this Too good to be true?
BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2020 11:22

A similar problem when relaxing lockdown:

The economy can't restart properly
the hospitality, leisure, entertainment sectors can't make a profit
if even a significant minority of their customers just stay away.

Schools can't restart properly - and let parents work - if teachers are staying home in droves with every (alleged) cough or cold

The government will have to end lockdown some day,
but unless they bring nearly everyone with them, the economy will only splutter along.

Telling people to "get a grip" won't make them go out and spend again
What will, is observing that countries on the continent that relax lockdown are reasonably OK, with not too many extra deaths

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2020 11:23

I despise the Sun ... but they sometimes have ace headlines !
< trivial, I know >

nettie434 · 06/05/2020 11:24

He had the disease - so thought he was immune.

But that was a mistake - we have repeatedly been told that it is not 100% conclusive that if you have coronavirus, you will be immune. It is too recent a virus to be able to reach that degree of certainty. He should have known this even though he is a mathematician, not a virologist.

The Conversation article I posted upthread said exactly the same as BigChocFrenzy, namely that models are only models. That is why we still do expensive community prevalence studies.

I think it was the Business Insider article that mentioned that Ferguson had not shared all his code. I think that is concerning, but of course there are intellectual property and commercial factors to bear in mind with this sort of research.

There was a fair amount of voluntary social distancing before lockdown. I was astonished at how empty London was on my last trip into the office (which was for a meeting arranged ages beforehand). There was also a huge clamour to close schools. At the same time, the last few days were quite chaotic - full pubs in the evenings, empty offices in the daytime, people driving around desperately trying to find supermarkets that were not empty. We are a much less compliant society than Sweden. That’s apart from all the other differences like population density, proportion of one person households and a higher prevalence of home working.

I don’t like the way some people think this news is to distract us from the death rates here, as if we can only hold one fact in our head. We can debate what should have been managed better (PPE & testing) but we also know how damaging it is to have a policy of ‘all in this together’ when it emerges that it’s not being followed by those who argued in favour of it.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2020 11:28

"all in this together"

It never was and never will be the case

The wealthy locked down in luxury estates with acres of land ... often their 2nd / 3rd / 4th homes
The super-wealthy departed with their staffs to island estates far away from danger

And with this deep recession, does anyone believe that all the billionaires & company tax-dodgers will suddenly pay their fair share of the tax for all this ?

chomalungma · 06/05/2020 11:29

I don’t like the way some people think this news is to distract us from the death rates here, as if we can only hold one fact in our head

It has worked though - just look at the media headlines

And look what's being talked about.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-52553661

LilacTree1 · 06/05/2020 11:29

Nettie I’m a Londoner and I agree - people were hiding at home the week before lockdown. It was astonishing.

I also dislike this “distraction theory” as if we can only focus on one idea at a time.

OP posts:
chomalungma · 06/05/2020 11:30

I also dislike this “distraction theory” as if we can only focus on one idea at a time

You may dislike it - but it has generated headlines .

LilacTree1 · 06/05/2020 11:32

choma one has nothing to do with the other.

There’s lots of headlines today!

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2020 11:33

There will be a public enquiry once the COVID epidemic is over, so that will be after universal vaccination

Hopefully that will cover everything and not be a coverup:

. the standard pandemic planning we had was only for flu and didn't work well for COVID
. how much reliance on models and the need for at least 2 independent models
. did the government only listen to health experts and not the economists
. NHS with too little spare capacity and not letting people into hospital
. the lack of PPE
. the delay in mass testing
,,,,,

LilacTree1 · 06/05/2020 11:34

Big it’ll just be an incredibly expensive cover up

OP posts:
chomalungma · 06/05/2020 11:35

one has nothing to do with the other

Just a coincedence that this news came out on the same day as we passed 30,000 deaths, Just in time for the news and for the papers to do their headlines?

Maybe...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-52553661

LilacTree1 · 06/05/2020 11:36

Yes, they could have done it when we hit 25,000

Do you think those obsessed by the death rate will care about Ferguson?

OP posts:
chomalungma · 06/05/2020 11:37

I can add to that list for the enquiry.

Did we have sufficient manufacturing equipment to vaccinate people?

I really hope they are working on that now.

Did we effectively use track and trace - and test people who thought they had been exposed quickly?

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2020 11:47

I'm expecting Hancock to be a scapegoat too, later this year
He'll be replaced and demoted

The other ministers will blame him for everything that went wrong,
even though the major decisions were all agreed by the whole Cabinet

SudokuBook · 06/05/2020 11:53

Hancock is a dick though. He’ll deserve all he gets

chomalungma · 06/05/2020 11:53

I'm expecting Hancock to flip soon - just seeing how he's reacting at the moment.

nettie434 · 06/05/2020 11:59

It never was and never will be the case

I agree that we are not ‘all in this together’ BigChocFrenzy but the pretence we are is a huge part of the way the public is presented with the pandemic - for instance, the Duchess of Cambridge talking about home schooling or celebrities posting pictures of themselves doing the clap for carers.

I recently discovered that the Queen Mother never did say ‘now I can look the East End in the eye’ after Buckingham Palace was bombed but it became a huge part of the narrative about the Blitz at the time and the myth has been widely perpetuated ever since.

Re taxes, Denmark has a brilliant policy, countries registered outside Denmark so not paying Danish taxes can’t apply for any government money. This couldn’t work here where so many people are employed in companies registered overseas but it is an idea for us going forward.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2020 12:04

Hancock is the hardest lockdown hawk in the Cabinet
He can't U-turn without looking a complete idiot in front of his colleagues

Mikki2019 · 06/05/2020 12:05

OMG Boris must be stressed out !

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