University Fees for on-line Lectures

[Kastanien]

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

That isn't how it works. The size of your loan makes no difference to how much you pay back each month, just how long it takes to pay it off. So it might take 18 years rather than 19 to pay off if you get a fee reduction, but you'll pay the same amount per month in years 1-18 (that duration entirely made up, of course)

But then you save the £300 per month (totally made up amount) for the final year- so yes it will make a difference. The duration of the payback makes a difference as well as the amount.

In my university, there is discussion of whether the fees for next year will change in response to how courses are delivered. It isn't so much about the actual teaching. I personally am not 'teaching' at all - as in I'm not delivering any lectures at the moment. But what I am doing is all the stuff that still has to be done whether students are physically on campus or not - marking, supervision and mentorship for dissertations, personal tutoring (which is particularly challenging in a time like this when students are needing so much more support), overseeing committees that support learning, dealing with academic misconduct (I've had a doubling in cases of academic misconduct in our department since the early days of covid because students are stressed and doing all sorts of stressed out foolish things to get themselves in hot water), all the extra IT support that goes into supporting online learning, supervision and tutoring. The actual front facing teaching is quite a small part of what you pay for when you pay for university education.

That said, where cuts should be coming is from facilities costs (if the gym is closed, employees should be furloughed, and students shouldn't be paying for access to something they aren't accessing). Keep in mind that along with that comes the jobs of making working people who will not be able to survive on furlough. But it can also come from executive level salaries and it rightly should come from those who can afford to give a little bit back to support the budget.

That said, I expect if teaching goes online (which it likely will - we just finished a meeting where we discussed plans for term 1 to be online, and possibly even term 2 of next year, likely with some online component through until vaccine development - this is in a health sciences faculty, many of whom are actively involved in the UK's COVID response), then there will be some changes to fees. That said, if I was an undergraduate, I'm not sure if I wouldn't take a gap year and see what happened next year. I think the social and personal aspect of university is as important as the educational aspect and I wouldn't want to miss out on that.

What do people actually want? For us to stop providing the stuff and not assess or mark anything, and give students their fees back? (I mean, it's not up to me, but I don't understand what's actually being asked for alongside the money). And then everyone just progresses to the next year or graduates, but has no contact from March to October? Or should we provide the content, but free?

I know OP it's basic maths. Bit worrying there might be teachers here.

I'd like for DS not to be in debt for a term of teaching he simply didn't get. Always happy to pay when getting something in return.

brassbrass you're clearly having a bad day. No need to be do rude.

While we shouldn't dismiss parents' experiences we also shouldn't dismiss the experiences of academics - I know how supportive I am of my students and I know I go above and beyond yet I've still had complaints about my lack of support.....and I'm not the only one

But then you save the £300 per month (totally made up amount) for the final year- so yes it will make a difference. The duration of the payback makes a difference as well as the amount.

Well, only if you ever pay it off and the estimates are that many, many current students never will. But yes, there will be a saving, just not for new graduates to use on their rent, as the pp I was responding to claimed.

Very little teaching happens in term 3 anyway......

And the finance info is correct. The original post was about saving for a deposit in the first couple of years post graduation.....a reduction in fees will have zero impact on that.

I keep feeling a bit frustrated at poor attendance and engagement with all the stuff I've taken days and hours to prepare - then I remember in the real world it would have been the last week of the semester anyway and attendance would have been dreadful (and ironically no problem to social distancing).

It's really kicking off on the Facebook page.

Reginabambina

"once people join the workforce they’ll be paid for it. You can’t really compare the two"

This comment betrays a rather entitled worldview.

Arguably students pay to learn to learn independently. It's a privilege and it is the skills that many decent employers are looking for. For many graduate jobs it doesn't matter what was studied but that they studied and managed to deliver in an academic context.

If a student hasn't learned to learn independently they will sink not swim once they enter the job market. That is IF they can secure a job in the first place.

"I would expect at the very least for lecturers/tutors to provide something that an undergrad can’t get from a book in a quarter of the time. A few have ime. They’ve all moved on pretty quickly though."

A lecturer is a facilitator, bringing different and interesting resources together and enabling students to learn about the materials using a wide range of pedagogies. They are not a nanny or personal tutor and university students should not expect to be spoon fed.

Brass your son's experience by your accuont sounds poor. He should pursue this, if he's had nothing at all since the lockdown - no assignments set or marked, no response to emails etc - is not ok.

It is a massive shame and bad timing that for many students this came almost within hours of the strike ending (not at my uni, for which I'm thankful, and I was ambivalent about the strike).

I do think in a climate where universities are businesses and students are customers

But this is not actually what universities are. Successive neo-liberal governments - currently full of Tory grandees who enjoyed a world class education for free - might try to brainwash you into thinking this, but universities are formally constituted as charitable organisations, and every single university puts independent learning and enquiry at the centre of its mission statement.

Thanks Merrick

They already had assignments issued before they were sent home and as I said he's just waiting to hand those in. But he's not had any teaching since then. They've been left to get on with whatever was in flight at the point of uni's closing. I would have expected contact via online seminars or at least a 1-2-1 with his personal tutor to see how he getting on...

There is s chance that teaching had already finished. ....my students only lost one week of lectures.
There is also some responsibility on the individual student to request tutorials.

teaching in many undergrad degrees is a complete waste of time. I didn’t attend lectures and bunked as many tutorials as possible while I was studying my undergrad in a Russell group because there wasn’t any real benefit in going

Clearly, constructing a logical argument wasn't on your syllabus, or that was one of the lectures you skipped.

Statement A: I didn't attend the teaching offered
Statement B: Teaching is a waste of time

So, if A, how can you be sure of B? What is your evidence if you didn't attend?

Don't be a snug twat. I doubt the complaints procedure is worth anything if the rest of the admin is anything to go by.

You've got nothing helpful to say to parents. Negating people's experiences and being smug isn't helpful. If you're some kind of academic (haven't read the whole thread sorry) poor kids who have to suffer you!

Did you mean smug?

There is an independent arbitrator for student complaints. Although not sure why I’m bothering to tell you, when you are being so rude.

Suellen there's all kinds of rude. I came on here and was promptly told that I was uninformed and that my son is a liar. I'm not having a bad day at all. I just don't have patience for certain types of posters.

There are some defensive academics on this thread. I haven't made any accusations against you personally - I don't know you. I came on to say that expecting young people with no income to accrue debt without receiving anything in return is not ok. I don't doubt some of you are doing your best. But I also don't doubt that some departments are doing sod all and to deny it is just ridiculous.

If Lab based courses do not have access to Labs
they are - by definition - not getting what was agreed when the course offer was accepted
same with ANY course that has practical work / field work / design work etc
STEM courses in fact

PPE might be easy to teach remotely for the Oxford dons who looked after the Chancellor
it won't work for Chemistry or Biology or Physics or Engineering

Summer Term in the UK is rarely a teaching term: it's an examination term. So the only teaching we do is personal tutorials, and sometimes revision sessions.

Did you mean smug? grin

I'll give you that 🤣

I don't deny that experiences will vary between universities and departments but as an experienced academic I can tell you that there is often a disconnect between university offerings and students perceptions. I think a pp was just pointing that out.

I am probably going to out myself here but local universities are using allowing some science undergraduates to volunteer at testing centres to get their lab experience.

And do you have anything helpful to add for instances where there isn't a disconnect?