University Fees for on-line Lectures

[Kastanien]

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

I have to say I find it absolutely bizarre that students are going to academic tutors about relationship issues and pregnancy scares. This is not to say that I don't believe you - an academic friend of mine says exactly the same. I left uni 10 years ago and wouldn't have dreamt of crying to my tutor about a break up. Surely this is what friends/family are there for?

My DDs 6th form college arranges its staff so teachers just teach and other staff are employed to support the students with personal issues, careers, attendance etc.. Each student has a designated tutor who they can contact and they have a few mandatory 1 2 1s during the year. It works so well for both staff groups and students. I'd prefer to see that model replicated at universities.

Some universities do have that model. I’ve worked at universities where I’ve had no personal tutor role and non lecturing staff have had that role. They even dealt with all the extension requests/extenuating circumstances which take up a bit chunk of time.

Me too @heroku, it's great they feel they have an adult figure they can trust I suppose, but also a little sad that they don't have friends and peers or a network back home that they can confide in. I got on well with my lecturers, but no way would I be going to them with issues like that, but each to their own I suppose.

Apart from all the other issues, it's completely unsustainable to be using tutors as emotional support. What happens when they leave university? Are they going to lean on their boss? Students would be much better off building long term support networks of family and friends and figuring out how to develop their own coping mechanisms. I will get flamed for saying this but I think we are babying many young people.

There are a number of reasons students choose to confide in is. One might be if the issue is going to impact on their work and they need extensions or extenuating circumstances or sometimes it's because you have a good rapport with the students and during a one to one tutorial personal information is shared.
During induction I given them all list of contacts and tell them to go directly to them if they need x,y or z but they still come to me as they know me.

I’m an early career academic. Plowed straight on from MA to PhD to short teaching contracts. Got my first permanent post a couple of years ago in my 30s. I am at a good university but 1.5hr drive away. That was closest interview I got. I earn £34k pre tax but cost of commute and Airbnb is about £300-400 p/m. I can’t afford to move as too expensive in university city and anyway my partner has his job in his location.

I’ve won awards for my teaching and I am passionate about that aspect of my role, but I was in bed at 4am and 5am this week because of a publication deadline I was meeting that I had to push to one side because of teaching online demands. I chose this life because I love teaching and working with undergraduates/PGs but the only people I know who work longer hours are partners in big firms earning 2-3 times what I do.

I was about to be promoted because students nominated me for an award, which would have allowed me to earn £2.5k more per year - but I’ve been told that has been cancelled because of the virus.

Whilst we are lucky - those of us with permanent posts - that we are secure in our jobs, there are no jobs in my field at all at the moment (I keep looking!) and the very few that you see advertised are now so competitive - and often mean moving to the other end of the country, which I can’t do because of my dh.

During induction I give them all list of contacts and tell them to go directly to them if they need x,y or z but they still come to me as they know me

I find this is yet another aspect of gendered labour. It is something that I and my female colleagues experience more than my male ones.

In fact, we recently had a student who was very vulnerable. I did the 1/2 day run around of finding and notifying different supports and making sure that people knew she might be coming their way and supporting the student by email and so-forth. I let a male colleague who was also implicated know. We had a meeting, I spelled it out and I sent him a follow-up email. When the student turned up he helped her with her assessment and then directed her to the general student portal 'to make an appointment to see a counsellor'. When I asked why he had not immediately phoned the contact in welfare who I had teed up and who was going to swing into action he gave me the 'deer in the headlight look, scrunched his eyes, tipped his head sideways and said 'aw I didn't know'.

I don't know what happened to the student. I never heard from her again.

@fortyfifty That is exactly the model the university I work at, and others have. However, I still have students coming to me with pastoral problems; relationships, problems with friendships/housemates, envy of other students who are doing better on the course, even about a coil going missing at one point! I do care, in fact I’m probably a bit too caring. I do struggle to understand it though because I never in a million years would have expected any of my lecturers to deal with this from 2003-2014 when I was studying. They were purely there to guide and inform my academic work. Part of the university process was about becoming an adult, being self-reliant and independent.

We are now expected to also be counsellors and parents, and that’s something many of us have never been trained for nor had any wish to be professionally. I do worry sick about some of my students and keep a close eye on them. But pastoral care shouldn’t be the bulk of a lecturer’s job, and as time goes on that seems to be exactly what is expected of us by both students and parents.

I’ve been criticised over and over by parents and students for not responding to emails sent between 1am and 5am, for referring students to wellbeing instead of providing counselling myself, for saying I couldn’t personally provide extensions and they would have to get a Doctors note because we have official procedures that we can’t negate. How uncaring I am...do I not know how much a Doctor’s note costs? They don’t need a counsellor, can’t I just listen to how badly their breakup or fall out with friends is affecting them and how they can’t get their work done because they are too heartbroken/stressed? They spent all night trying to get the essay in but I didn’t respond to their emails so they can’t submit it now.

I do love my job and care deeply about my students. I am very, very sad for them at the moment, especially my third years. But I’m not their mother, or counsellor or friend...I’m there to educate them in the subject they have chosen to study and ensure they make academic progress. I already go far and above in terms of emotional support but there is only so much that is healthy, reasonable or safe to provide.

I will get flamed for saying this but I think we are babying many young people

I agree. There are those who need professional help (not us) and those who, honestly, need to be developing their own coping mechanisms and so-forth.

• I was just annoyed recently when a few posted that pastoral care etc and students welfare wasn't what they are there to do,, we teach not parent (or similar) someone said.

Given how hard some students find the move to Uni.. moving away, peer pressure, money worries and that they don't all have supportive families etc i was surprised at these comments, as imho becoming a teacher is all about the children or young adults in this case, surely happy students are easier to teach than miserable unhappy ones?

The present CV crisis makes all of the above even greater and i would hope that anyone in the Uni sector would do all they can to assist in these extraordinary circumstances but from what i've read on here, that might not be always the case, as it seems either the students fault for not complaining or pushy parents (who they aren't interested in)*

I'm a lecturer. But in a healthcare profession, so perhaps slightly different from others on here. As an academic tutor I definitely see my role as supporting the personal as well as academic development of my students. This includes, wellbeing and pastoral support. This is controversial, though and some of my colleagues don't feel that this is appropriate. However, I have the skills and knowledge from my clinical work and it's amazing to see how the students grow throughout their training.

I do not, however, get into conversations with parents. Our students are adults, part of my role is supporting that transition if people are struggling with it, and parents stepping in to rescue is not appropriate. I will listen if they insist on talking to me but I wont enter into dynamics which infantilise my students.

Additionally, just for interest, during covid, I'd estimate that the extra support for students through this period, probably adds up to around 15-18 hours per week. This is on top of everything I already do. Fortunately that's offset by the fact that I can work from home so am not commuting.

I could have written namechange 84 post word for word.

I once had a student complain about me officially because of lack of support. One of his complaints was that I didn't respond to his emails while I was off work sick with tonsillitis. He felt my out of office directing him to contact my head of department with any urgent queries was 'insulting'. He also sent in excess of 500 emails over the year and stayed he felt he had the right to do this because I was so friendly and approachable.

@Xenia - Yes, it happens in law too, I know. Trainee barristers are on shocking rates. And I know of legal aid lawyers who are on shockingly low incomes.It's a myth that the law is an instant pathway to untold wealth. Can be, but depends very much on which path you choose.

Additionally, just for interest, during covid, I'd estimate that the extra support for students through this period, probably adds up to around 15-18 hours per week.

I’d agree...I’m going to have to put in at least 12 hours today, which is a day I don’t usually work, just on extra support.

However, I am not in a salaried post. I’m hourly paid, purely to teach. So I am not getting paid for anything beyond the delivery hours. I don’t get paid for planning, marking or pastoral support. In fact, after this month’s pay, I won’t get paid again until the end of October.

Good grief, @SueEllenMishke. That's harassment.
@YetAnotherSpartacus - interesting comment about gendered labour.

@NameChange84

Sorry to hear that, can you direct students back to the salaried staff?

Our staff who are on hourly contracts literally teach. They get a higher rate of hourly pay than us because it includes the prep but they don't have any other role at all.

This might be just our department though. We are very strong as a team at looking out for each other.

I agree ellanwood thankfully so did my university.
The students response was - 'I'm paying a lot of money to be here I'm entitled to that level of support'.

@feelingfragile

Thank you. Sadly, the salaried staff in my department are the sort that many students justifiably complain about. They are unapproachable, even to me, let alone students. I’m happy to read it’s not like this everywhere and hope that I can get a salaried position in a better workplace soon.

'I'm paying a lot of money to be here I'm entitled to that level of support'.

Wouldn’t we all be rich if we had a pound for every time we heard something in that vein?!

@NameChange84

That's not good, it's a stressful enough job without having to contend with colleagues like that.

I hope you're able to find something better soon.

Absolutely namechange

It sounds like you have a tough time. Hope you find something better soon ♥️

There are those who need professional help (not us) and those who, honestly, need to be developing their own coping mechanisms and so-forth

Absolutely.

What concerns me is the growing number of students who come to us with already significant MH issues, and expect university staff - academic and professional services (including well-being - to replace their parents.

And parents who turn around and say "Why didn't you look after my child?" That's not actually our job. We do what we can. Like other academics on this thread, I have spent hours with troubled students, I've visited them in hospital, I've intervened with parents, I've sat with counsellors and students for urgent joint interventions.

What I've observed is that there's a tendency for some troubled young people cling to a belief that somehow going to university will free them of longer term issues. But it doesn't. They carry their issues with them. And the intensity of all that change: living away from home, new friendship groups, sex & drugs& rocknroll, all of that - most students fly and really take steps to adult independence. But for some, it's too much. They really shouldn't be at university, at that point in their lives.

I had one undergrad come to me before a session saying "I just thought I should let you know, I've been having some anxious thoughts." Well, I thought "Welcome to the adult world!"

But I said soothingly and calmly - "You know what to do, focus on the moment, focus on your work, be present, participate." An utterly lovely student, actually, really clever & wonderfully collaborative with peers.

But I couldn't help thinking that somewhere along the line, that student had somehow been 'taught' (not deliberately, I assume) that having anxious thoughts was somehow problematic in more than a "Wake up and get over yourself" or "Well, what am I anxious about and is it a realistic anxiety? If so, what can I do to help myself?" sort of way. That others needed to be concerned about her anxious thoughts ...

I wonder how they cope going into the workplace. There are a few recent grads that have come through recently and have emailed about literally everything, or ask permission for very bizarre things which it's very clear they can get on with themselves. It's not the universities fault, but I wonder what changed.

I'm realising how lucky I am in my university/department. I am hourly paid, but can claim for preparation time, and any additional time I spend answering student emails, meeting students, marking etc. I also have really good support (as a fairly new staff member) from the rest of the department. I was also told I could claim for any hours I would have worked but didn't due to CV19.

Bizarrely though my university often ends up on lists of universities who treat staff poorly, so I had assumed my experience was more or less typical.

@Sandybval I also worry about how these people will cope once they leave university. I hope to god no new hire comes to me saying "I think you should know I've been having some anxious thoughts". I definitely wouldn't have the patience that some of you guys seem to have.

As for what's changed - I think it's parenting styles and social media. I also think some of our new attitudes towards mental health are incredibly problematic. Having anxious thoughts does not mean you have an anxiety disorder, it means you are a normal human in a stressful situation. The glorification of victimhood and obsessive need to pathologise everything is so damaging.