University Fees for on-line Lectures

[Kastanien]

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

namechange ah yes ...the gender pay gap. When l started working as an academic I was the only member of staff in my faculty on a lecturer salary as opposed to a senior lecturer. Thankfully my Athena Swan rep and Dean fought it and it was changed pretty quickly.
If youy not read it already there is a chapter on this in the book 'invisible women' ....it's a fascinating yet depressing read.

Exactly theMerrickBoy the only academic staff earning even 50k plus at my university are Heads of Division/Dept, Professors, Directors and Deans/Associate Deans.

It's such a myth that lecturers earn a fortune and goes alongside the idea we all get may-september off.

@jasjas1973 - not only do the majority of lecturers and senior lecturers earn far less than that (in my sector in ranges from mid £20ks to mid £30ks, a lot of university tutors I know are on zero hours contracts, earning around £19.50 per teaching hour which is allegedly inclusive of prep!. I have worked for one of the very top unis in the country and my pay per hour was about £8 when I took into account prep, admin and the hours spent replying to student emails, queries, requests for references (all very time consuming, expected and unpaid.) I was earning less than minimum wage, because only a tiny proportion of actual hours were allowed by the uni. Endless campaigns to get our work properly recognised met with deaf ears. I gave up that job because I earn far more as a private tutor. Lots of highly qualified and very talented people I know are earning around £8-10ph in real terms for the teaching they do.

So the Times have made up those figures? OR the Uni's lied to the Times?
Either way those salaries came from somewhere.

I looked on Indeed and many full time lecturing positions were advertised at 40k plus p.a some much more, if you really are on such poor salaries, i'd get a new CV asap.

Senior Lecture (Teaching)
University of Bath
Bath
£59,135 a year
The Department of Mechanical Engineering

This current vacancy is actually quite a bit higher than the pdf i linked to, for a Bath uni senior lecturer.

No of course they haven't lied - but what it doesn't do is cover the breadth of roles within those categories.

At my university a senior lecturer starts at 40k and goes up to 49k. No senior lecturer in my institution earns more than 49k. Those that earn above that are professors, heads of departments, associate deans, directors etc. That document hasn't distinguished between those roles. All you need is a few highly paid professors to skew the average.

Some universities pay more for SL positions as do some subjects but that one example of yours doesn't paint a full picture of over 300 universities.

And as I mentioned..... universities are the second biggest it users of casual labour, only retail uses more. Many lectures don't even have a permanent contract.

We aren't lying to you - we're sharing real life experiences.

And while 40k isn't a bad salary by any stretch but considering the qualifications and experience needed not to mention the hours we work and the level of responsibility ....it's not amazing.

If it is any comfort to ellanwood, when my daughter was a London city trainee solicitor, she worked out her hourly rate (as no over time and often working all night or no weekends off for a month etc) was less than the minimum wage too!

Agree 40k isn't much by todays standards, however, the Times averages seems to suggest a higher SL lecturer salary.

Glassdoor
Senior Lecturer Salaries
376 Salaries
Updated 18 Apr 2020
Average Base Pay
£49,164/yrS

Get that CV updated!!!

UCL avg 56k... Plymouth 41k as you'd expect, London is a very expensive place to live, Plymouth isn't.

Yeah cos it's that easy.....I teach a subject that's offered at only 6 universities. I'd have to move or commute 3 hours to work at another university.

And remember that's an average.....and well below the figure you posted last night. That doesn't mean that's what we all earn.
Another important point. Not all lecturers are senior lecturers. In some universities making that jump to SL is very, very tough.
A lecturer's salary will be at least 10k below that average.

I’m a senior lecturer. I’m on 38k. The pay scale is a band and you start at the bottom (where I am) and get annual increments up to 49k. It may be Slightly different at different unis but that’s where it is where I am and at my last uni where I was a non senior lecturer.

I took a pay cut from my job in industry to become a lecturer. Tried to negotiate pay but got a straight refusal as does everyone. It’s accepted if you enjoy teaching you take a significant pay cut to come over from industry. Even bottom of SL scale is a pay cut though by the time I’m on 49k I’ll be earning more than my previous non academic role. Though to get into academia I had to have a masters and also gain my PGCE neither of which are needed in industry. It’s the only sector I know where you strive to get more qualifications to take a pay cut. Luckily I love my job.

I was the same Jacob although I already worked in the uni in a professional services role when I moved across. I took a pay cut and had to get my teaching qualification within the first year.

@jasjas1973 I can’t move to the other side of the country. There are no jobs offering that kind of salary for my area of expertise within a 2 hour commute. As I say, moving is not an option for me. It’s not as simple as “update your CV”.

Staff still need to be paid?

I didn't post any figure last night, i linked to a Times pdf on salaries, i didn't make up these figures either.

However, if you move from a well paid industry job to a lesser paid uni one, thats up to you.

I was just annoyed recently when a few posted that pastoral care etc and students welfare wasn't what they are there to do,, we teach not parent (or similar) someone said.

Given how hard some students find the move to Uni.. moving away, peer pressure, money worries and that they don't all have supportive families etc i was surprised at these comments, as imho becoming a teacher is all about the children or young adults in this case, surely happy students are easier to teach than miserable unhappy ones?

The present CV crisis makes all of the above even greater and i would hope that anyone in the Uni sector would do all they can to assist in these extraordinary circumstances but from what i've read on here, that might not be always the case, as it seems either the students fault for not complaining or pushy parents (who they aren't interested in)

However, if you move from a well paid industry job to a lesser paid uni one, thats up to you.

Well fortunately lectures, nurses, teachers, medics, DV workers, social workers etc all chose their profession because they care about what they do and doing something worthwhile is important.

Doesn't mean that they should therefore take every bit of shit that gets thrown at them. What a nasty little attitude you have.

Oh and pastoral care at university shouldn't be provided by someone with no knowledge or training. If your uni dc was suicidal wouldn't you want them to receive counselling and support from a professional trained in MH?

Given the pages and pages of complaints/ concerns by university staff albeit balanced by a few positive comments about the job, I don’t think jasjas is being unreasonable or indeed nasty.
Especially given the focus of the thread was supposed to be about the students.

Professionals don’t need to ‘take every bit of shit’ thrown at them but equally there are ( were) other jobs.

I wonder if part of the problem is the individual research academics are required to undertake.
In nursing, teaching, social work etc the focus of the role is the patient, student, client.
Further professional qualifications are also part and parcel of the role.

Is it the case that for many academics their personal research and supervision of PhD students is preferable to teaching undergraduates and that the role is too widely spread ?

Most of us do this job because we love it. We're genuinely passionate about what we do.
We're not complaining about taking a pay cut we we're just explaining we're not as well paid as some people think we are.

Jas you were suggesting we were earning 60k plus. We explained that's simply not true.

However, it's a valid point that we really shouldn't be providing pastoral care.... certainly not to the extent we are.
I'm not a qualified counsellor or mental health professional.

pickup no I'm in it for the teaching. The research is a necessary evil for me.
Teaching and supporting my students and seeing them enter our profession and make a difference is why I do this.
This job is such a big part of my identity. I bloody love it.
Which is why this thread has upset me so much.

Is it the case that for many academics their personal research and supervision of PhD students is preferable to teaching undergraduates and that the role is too widely spread

There's a grain of truth in that. The reality is that teaching only posts do not have the gravitas that standard teaching/research has. Parity of esteem between teaching and research sadly doesn't exist. Research only isn't financially viable - the few posts that exist are for specific project and short term. No one finds an academic to just research and write papers. Teaching pays the bills, and in times of austerity context hours go up with the expectation that research output isn't diminished - cos that's the end of your career.

Thanks for explaining that.
I can see it’s a balancing act.

I’m in it for the teaching and prefer working with undergrads in all honesty.

I don’t do any research or anything to do with postgrad students. 100% focused on undergrads.

Oh and pastoral care at university shouldn't be provided by someone with no knowledge or training. If your uni dc was suicidal wouldn't you want them to receive counselling and support from a professional trained in MH?

I wouldn’t do. I always signpost students to appropriate services. So yes, I’d have an immediate chat....and I get students coming to me in years about relationships, housing issues, being homesick, pregnancy scares, etc.

And while I’d try and say stuff to make them feel better in the short term and try to offer another perspective, etc I will say that they need to contact the accommodations office or the well-being centre, counselling services, crisis team, whoever.

When I’ve had suicidal students I’ve sat with them and rung the crisis team and waited with them. Even the “less serious” cases such as being homesick I make sure the student has the counselling service details and knows how to self refer incase it’s more serious than it sounds.

The thing about pastoral support is this....none of us would ignore a student who needed support. What we're saying is that it's becoming and increasingly bigger part of our job and often we're not best placed or qualified. That doesn't mean we're uncaring - it's quite the opposite. We know our limitations.

I'm the named personal tutor for 63 students. In normal times that's not an issue - 40 of those are part time students on a professional post graduate course so typically have their own support networks. However, it does mean that I am the first port of call for 63 students - in recent weeks pretty much every single student has contacted me needing some level of support. Some of that had been due to mental health issues that have been exacerbated by the current situation. I can't effectively support those students and do the rest of my job....so they get signposted elsewhere. That's not a case of not giving a shit, it's me trying to do the best for students.