University Fees for on-line Lectures

[Kastanien]

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

From what I have read (Prof Karol Sikora one interesting source) it seems very unlikely we will get another peak like this.

We prob had covid in uk since Jan (France is researching this now) we were completely unprepared. The situation is very different now with lockdown, knowledge of symptoms, nhs hospitals more prepared (not totally I know!). With students in the lower risk age group opening campuses is probably less contentious than say primary schools.

The universities' greediness in charging full fees is going to come back to bite them in the longer term. You mean the university's need to make up all of the money the government removed from them has meant the fees have gone up... and now look! Fees in, government responsibility out! I very much doubt there is a university in England that thinks they are better off now... in any way! My last Uni employer fought the introduction of direct fees tooth and nail.

As others have said, the sector is in / about to enter total free fall. You, the consumer, now have a choice. Bear with it and KOKO or fight back, get your fees refunded and let it all fall down. Just as you do with every other commodity you purchase.

Yeah, why don't all first years due to start this Oct take a year out and:
--Get a job and save up
Travel the world
Go volunteering abroad--

I would just go to Uni as usual if I was them.

If they haven't got the maturity to learn online that's up to them.
All the lecturers I know are working FT and very hard at home trying to deliver to their students.
All students need access to WiFi & a laptop if they are attending uni so that's not really an argument.
There will be massive competition to get into Oct 2021 (if lockdown is lifted) so if you haven't got the best grades then Oct 2020 would be a better bet to get into a better Uni/course.

I also think many parents are a bit optimistic as to the number of students who attend every lecture, and the number who catch up online later on.

All those talking about deferral, these students may be at a disadvantage for places due to competition next year. I have heard some unis will not be allowing a guaranteed place deferral, so that will be a big risk for some students! The scramble for places next year if they have big deferrals will mean grade boundaries will probably be higher next year. Think carefully what you choose!

That's a good point, but so many unis depend heavily on overseas - particularly Chinese - students. These students have no particular connection to the UK and the whole world is competing for their money. If they're being asked to shell out the full whack for an online course 8 time zones away, they may simply go elsewhere. I know this is a pandemic and the whole world is affected, but if unis in Oz or the US are offering discounts on online courses, there'd be no reason for them not to take it.

As someone who works with overseas students I know that many of them are very unhappy with being asked to pay full tuition fees for online courses and have asked for their deposits back.

I imagine parents will be saying go and it’s the 18 year olds who are less keen!

They are the ‘customers’ here ultimately

The universities' greediness in charging full fees is going to come back to bite them in the longer term.

FFS....if you're going to make comments like this at least educate yourself about what actually happened. Universities lost a significant amount of money when the higher fees were introduced in 2012. In many cases the fees charged don't cover the cost of running the course.

I'm just finishing my second year and having had the last term online I am extremely worried about the autumn term. However its a shitty situation all round and I'd rather get it over with than quibble over fees.

I don't know whether I'd feel the same if I was a young undergraduate missing out on all the other fun stuff though.

After another morning spent teaching university students (to the very best of my ability, but without all the right materials, with many students suffering from poor wifi connections, the etiquette of 'hands up' in Zoom classes still unclear, etc) I would encourage any 17 or 18 year old to delay starting by a year. My students are still learning something and they're doing their best, but they also seem very understimulated and just not really engaged with the material in the usual way. People coming and going in the background, other family members using the wifi, etc, obviously doesn't help. But, most of all, they're missing out on ALL of the social (including intellectually sociable) aspects of university life -- which is a part of what you're paying for. And this is a group that's already formed and tested in real life. I dread the idea of teaching freshers who don't yet know each other online.

However, universities aren't going to allow everyone who asks to defer to do that, so space will be limited. Withdrawing and reapplying will be risky, because the number of applicants will be much higher than usual (all of next years applicants, and a large number of this years, plus people who are having career changes -- student nos. usually go up in times of uncertainty). I would recommend that would-be gap year students get in contact now to ask about deferrals.

My uni uploaded its lectures online straight after class, it's just a video of the lecture and the slide show presentation. So would be no need for reduction in fees. Besides when thing back to normal they'll just hike the prices up to make up the loss.

Appreciate this would be more tricky to arrange and to plan for subjects that are more hands on say lab work etc.

From what I have read (Prof Karol Sikora one interesting source) it seems very unlikely we will get another peak like this.

Hopefully you are correct. But universities would be very foolish to make assumptions at this stage about what the autumn term will look like, and not to plan for various eventualities. That's exactly what they are doing now. My university has apparently modelled eleven different possible scenarios. They can guess how the pandemic might proceed globally (this is different from schools as there is only a local dimension to their planning) and plan business continuity according to different models, but they can't say for sure right now what will happen.

With students in the lower risk age group opening campuses is probably less contentious than say primary schools.

I'm not sure about this. Students are higher risk than primary school pupils, plus there are significantly more staff working on campuses (several thousand as opposed to, say, a hundred). And not all students fall within the 18-21 age range. Academics also often can't cover each others' teaching if we get ill, because much of it is very specialised. That risks teaching stopping if staff get sick. Which is one of the arguments for online teaching, which is at least pretty much guaranteed to proceed.

Personally, I will want PPE if I'm to be in a lecture theatre being coughed at by hundreds of students and having to use equipment that other people have touched that day. I wonder how great an experience it will be being taught by someone wearing a mask. That would seriously affect the teaching dynamic, I would think.

It’s great that your uni is planning for all variations - very wise.

Students are hopefully more able to wash hands, social distance and know when they are ill. Let’s hope so anyway!

Yes I hope people can PPE if they want it - I imagine a uni is better places to make this/source it than say a small primary school or small business.

Hopsalong - sounds dispiriting all round

Having lost a lot of February and March to strikes, then uni cancelling all her lectures (even online), assignments and end of year exams, online lectures will be welcome.

Apparently DD's uni are aiming to put the whole of the first semester online as a backup. This could take a lot of planning and not even be needed but I'd rather she had it in place. She missed out doing a module last year she'd have loved to do, and there's another one next semester than she always planned to do - anything is better than nothing. It'll be better value than the flat her friend's are renting next year which won't be far off uni fees for one room, and she might not get to use.

NameChange84 - I could have written your posts. I'm doing exactly the same. There are students who are flourishing, there are students who are struggling because they don't have computers or internet and so on and there are those using it as an almighty excuse because they can't be bothered - and chances are these would be the same students who would sit through class, if they bothered to show up, staring at their phones.

If the lecturer needs PPE then so do the students. I'd not be keen on my DC being in a lecture hall in the hear future.

The thing is, even if they reduced fees it really wouldn't make much difference to students' financial positions in the here and now. The money goes straight from SFE to the university, they won't be giving us the money from the loan to spend as we see fit. And given I'll likely be paying this off for decades until it gets written off anyway, I don't see that a reduction on one term's fees will make a significant impact. It could well mean that some of the language support staff, or the disability service, for example, are made redundant or work reduced hours, which on the contrary would have a massive impact on my degree. As a humanities student, I'm struggling without library access for key texts and secondary reading, despite my tutors' efforts to find online materials, but I don't see that as the fault of the university - it's not like they've willfully removed access.

I’m genuinely not worried about most teens being in lecture theatres. It seems that teaching staff feel worried pos due to being older/underlying health concerns

We have to hope the knowledge we have on this is right and 18/22 are among the lowest risk. Not zero risk but not like the over 70s

Fair enough baked potato - I think it’s more the 18 year olds wondering whether starting uni this year is for them

On the flip side of this, as a mature student this is a really challenging time. All my lectures have become online seminars via zoom etc with a few PowerPoint slides available to download afterwards. I have two children at home, one with SEN and I am finding it impossible to attend classes as I cannot leave eldest unattended. Having emailed and spoken to my tutors I've been directed to just focus on final assignments, and directed to some more reading to supplement what I'm missing from the online classes. The end result is that I now have 3 weeks to write three full assignments, which involve a lot of planning, reading of materials and research, with no relevant teaching materials. It's a bit like a do it yourself degree and it's proving almost impossible. I've decided I just need to hand in the required number of words and that there is only so much I can do in the current circumstances about the quality of what I've written. I am writing late at night, while the children are asleep and am functioning on about 4/5hours sleep.
I am still not resentful about paying my fees because I'm hugely aware that those of us who can't attend online lectures are in the minority and that were I able to attend I'd be finding the experience entirely different. I also chose to do a degree with caring responsibilities and usually have no issues with finding the time due to school and wrap around childcare where needed.

My uni is relatively new and local, certainly isn't a prestigious establishment. But it's a wonderful source of social mobility and for me, the opportunity to access a career that I am passionate about. The teaching staff are dedicated and enthusiastic about their students and I would hate to see them made redundant or the university suffer extreme financial difficulty or forced to close because of this pandemic.

The standard of uni teaching isn't worth the 9k a year even in person. You sit in a room of 200 people, get talked at for an hour, learn almost nothing and have to go and relearn everything yourself. Unfortunately, the uni's need the money regardless of how they teach because they don't get enough funding elsewhere.

There's not currently a plan to teach online anyway, simply not possible for some courses that require labs.

So those of you in the know, what will happen with lab based courses?

The standard of uni teaching isn't worth the 9k a year even in person. You sit in a room of 200 people, get talked at for an hour, learn almost nothing and have to go and relearn everything yourself.

Certainly, sitting in a room of 200 students and getting an hour's lecture a week without the tutor ascertaining your understanding would not merit much of a tuition fee at all. But, fortunately, that is not what university education consists of. And if you were receiving such poor quality teaching and minimal contact in breach of what you signed up for, there are mechanisms for you to be refunded.

My son is in his second year.

Deadlines and assignments remain the same but with little to no online tuition and no access to the library. Yes, they can access online journals but not books and it's no substitute for being able to work with a text in front of you. Collaborative group work via zoom or whatever has proven tricky.

We accept there is no option to reduce fees but the lockdown, along with the strikes before that, means he's attended very few lectures this academic year.

Fortunately, he has got mainly first class grades until now and and his grades haven't dropped below a 2:1 but he'd have got a better quality of education and better value for money via the OU for a third of the cost the way things are currently!