University Fees for on-line Lectures

[Kastanien]

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

I do feel sorry for students (like my own daughter) who also missed a lot this year because of strikes. I'm no fan of Jo Grady or the UCU at the moment and for what it's worth I thought they were misguided.

I do think there's a problem though in that what @PickUpThePieces said is something I'm seeing a lot: they're missing their friends, they're missing all teh social aspects of the summer term, they're bereft and they've lost an awful lot.

But that can't/shouldn't be combined into their frustration, where they are frustrated, with what their universities are offering online. I think their sense of loss is compounded of a lot of things, many of which aren't really in our gift to resolve. But we're the ones they can target.

What exactly is our supposed lack of a flying -blank- about labs and STEM supposed to demonstrate?

Listening that's a terrible situation and I hope the complaint gets somewhere - again though I think it shouldn't be conflated into the general 'universities are all shit, tutors are taking the piss', because that's a very specific scenario and one I can't imagine going on for long in most institutions. And not, obviously, Covid-related.

THe fact that none of the academics on this thread seem to give a flying about labs and STEM subjects
speaks volumes

who says we don't care? we can only really comment on our own experiences and subjects. I teach an education related subject. I have one module which is very practical and i'm working really hard to figure out how that can be taught remotely if needed.
I really feel for all students and can understand how those studying lab based subjects must be struggling but it's not for me to find a solution to that.

I feel so sorry for this generation of students.
All the young people, I know are putting their best foot forward, some of whom are in very challenging domestic and financial situations.

^this.

It's disheartening to hear disparaging comments about them. This has been an unbelievably rubbish academic year & the next one looks just as bad. They are going to be in massive debt & paying loads of tax ... a cohort who'll be screwed professionally & financially (& socially) & for the most part they being incredibly generous & uncomplaining about it. I think they are entitled to be more than a little bit fed up & anxious.

I guess traffic light safety relates to staff too. If staff cannot be on site they work remotely. Surely this isn’t all staff though?

Titchy, I get all that.
I appreciate that reducing tuition fees, refunds etc is not going to happen for a multitude of reasons.
I wasn’t holding out any hope of that, anyway.

There are, however, several academics on these type of threads who seem to have nothing particularly positive to say about the student body and appear to be totally devoid of empathy.

Students have been used as pawns by the unions and universities in the strike action, through no fault of their own.
They have also been expected to support their striking lecturers.

And now, as a result of Covid 19, their university experience is falling far short of what they had hoped.

I am glad that there are academics like you, who will acknowledge that it is a very difficult and disappointing situation for students too.

I guess I’m supposedly one of the academics who doesn’t care about and has no empathy for students.... funny that I’ve spent hours the past fortnight having individual video supervisions with students, have given detailed written feedback on draft dissertations, have been sorting out loads of extension requests with no questions asked, have been trying to support other colleagues with online teaching as I am in a leadership role, and am just now going through the guidance for our take home exams to ensure that students with disabilities and caring responsibilities aren’t disadvantaged.

That’s me - I just have no empathy.

THe fact that none of the academics on this thread seem to give a flying about labs and STEM subjects speaks volumes

I teach stem, and I do care. However, I'll admit that I have absolutely no idea how to run a lab while I, and all my students, are locked up in their individual houses spread all over the globe.

If you have any bright ideas, please post them up.

I'm a student and whilst I completely understand the fees staying the same my course will be impossible to complete without face to face teaching to learn practical skills. For my course it requires hundreds of hours in clinical skills to become registered if we don't get them we can't qualify then what are we actually paying full fees for?

The vitriol aimed at university lecturers on this thread and elsewhere is depressing.

I don't think the academics on this thread ( and I include myself in this) are being uncaring or lacking in empathy.
Most of us have acknowledged that it's a difficult situation and I'll bet most of us are working above and beyond to support our students - I know I am. We're also facing challenges - I have children at home and a DH also working full time plus we're also facing redundancies, pay cuts etc. We are doing our best and its disheartening to be told we're shit.
There are some things to consider:

• The move to online teaching was done with very little notice. We've done our best while navigating new technology. IF we went up having to deliver remotely from September I can guarantee it will look different. We will have had time to work and plan properly.

• Many universities are investing in student support and they are planning on extending this support for after they graduate. I know of one university careers service that has secured intensive support for their graduates for up to two years after they graduate. At great expense. Others will follow i'm sure - partly because employability figures are key to universities.

• While we get that it is hard for students they do still need to take responsibility for their learning and be pro-active. I am offering far more pastoral support than is technically my job but it's the students responsibility to seek this out.

• If you think you have been let down by your university then you should complain - i know in my university all complaints are looked into. Student satisfaction is important.

Oh and on a personal note. I've rearrange all my annual leave to accommodate student extensions and the give them all an extended deadline. But yeah, I don't care.

Oh yeah I forgot as well - I also cancelled my annual leave over Easter to accommodate deadline extensions and to prepare online teaching for after the Easter break. There’s that lack of empathy for students again, tsk tsk.

At least the academics on the thread are getting paid (or even furlough) unlike many of the parents in the UK funding children at university,

It has been an appalling year for students - strikes and now this.

I am paying rent for two student houses that are unoccupied (the maintenance loans are less than the rent let alone any food or expenses)
My kids are paying tuition fees to closed universities
Neither are getting labs or practicals
One will not get a graduation and the rejigged finals are - by the admission of that HoD - needing more work hint, its May, the exam is in May

I strongly reserve the right to be deeply pissed off that my massively reduced family income no furlough or WFH here
and their massively reduced future prospects
are not good

Yes we're being paid but we're working.... so while I know I'm lucky to be in work I'm not going to apologise for getting paid. And it doesn't mean I deserve to be told I'm not doing a good job. I'm working ridiculous hours alongside looking after a child and homeschooling ( as are others ) so it's no holiday.

And not all academics took part in the strikes. I didn't and hardly any of my colleagues did.

There is an assumption in this thread that all students are having a shit experience. That's not the case.

@Xenia

If I get kept on next academic year, like every other Academic year, I don’t get paid between June and November.

Academic staff are not being furloughed. I’m
hourly paid staff. I’m not being remunerated for all of the extra hours I’m working and it’s a lot. 3 times my normal work week. My friend who is on 2 casual contracts at 2 separate universities works until 4am and starts work at 9am every morning and has done for months now. I also have no chance of picking up the extra work I usually do over the summer break as it’s all
cancelled or closed. Only the very senior salaried lecturers at my university are not in the same boat as me. All other teaching staff are facing financial hardship at my institution.
I have zero job security beyond next month. I’m being shielded so it’s not like I can just walk into a job as a carer or in a supermarket.

And of course, many academics also have their own children who are going through university amidst all this.

Most of the extensions I have to deal with are for work to be submitted in August. With a 10 day marking turnaround (1st and 2nd marked in that time) I rarely am able to take annual leave in August. I lose about 2 weeks of annual leave every year, because I just can’t take it.

I’m not furloughed, nor is my DH. We are both trying to juggle working full time (and I have a massively increased workload) while looking after 2 toddlers. It’s incredibly difficult, and to see a thread full of parents (mostly parents, interestingly, the students haven’t been so vitriolic) slagging academics off is... grim.

the rejigged finals are - by the admission of that HoD - needing more work

Of course it takes time to entirely redesign assessments. They probably have to get external examiners to sign off as well. I’m bemused that this would be communicated to students, though, that sort of Dept business would not be sent out in my institution. All the students need to know is that the exams/assessments will be released on x date.

What happens to the courses that require a practical element in order to pass? You can't do that online.

Many of the parents on this thread write as if academics are responsible for COVID-19 and its effects.

And to a pPp upthread: I have great concern for my students and professional care and even a kind of professional affection - I love it when they do well and I can see them learning in front of me.

I gave far less respect for many of the parents on MN who seem to regard academics as inconvenient servants, who don’t indulge their DC, and certainly shouldn’t be respected for their expertise and skill.

We're being paid because we're still working. I do feel very lucky that I am working and can work. But that's why we're still being paid. I'm also doing loads more than usual.

And I don't think any academic here doesn't have a good word to say about students. I've seen some brilliant engagement by a sadly small minority, and I miss them all. I wish there wasn;t a global pandemic so I could teach them face to face, but there is.

You'd be surprised how little some students do engage though, and how disheartening that is. Several students asked if online seminars could be extended because they really missed the contact. I added extra as 2 turned up. Not even the ones who explicitly asked for the time turned up. It's really, really, hard.

I gave far less respect for many of the parents on MN who seem to regard academics as inconvenient servants, who don’t indulge their DC, and certainly shouldn’t be respected for their expertise and skill

exactly.

What happens to the courses that require a practical element in order to pass? You can't do that online

I teach in such a course. I teach some stuff which requires relatively close physical contact. I’m on the edge of a vulnerable group in terms of an underlying health condition. It is a huge concern on so many levels.

We have had many meetings discussing this. We have a Plan A, a Plan B, and a Plan C. Some teaching has the potential of putting staff health (and lives) at risk.

We are all working flat out trying within our capacity to solve these problems

But they are essentially unsolvable. We will be doing things differently until there’s a vaccine and/ or reliable testing.

Young people will have to learn a new level of respect for each other’s health and for the health and safety of those who teach them.