Time to get real people

[cookingmywaythroughlockdown]

Ok I think it's time to get a grip on reality!

Coronavirus is pretty nasty but it isn't apocalypse now time. Most of us are going to get it at some point and we will be just fine. So will our families and friends.
The UK cannot stay locked down for much longer without producing a national disaster that will reverberate for decades. So - you will be going back to work, your kids will be going back to school. Wash your hands well and enjoy your lives.
I'm just so sick of the posts prophesying carnage and really enjoying competitive isolation. For most people living like this is borderline harmful. For some it is already actively harmful.

We have to come out from under the bed. Wear a mask, wear gloves if you like but be prepared to live a normal if socially distanced life.

All epidemics burn themselves out eventually. We are much better placed to treat and protect the vulnerable then ever before. At some point soon we have to just get on with it.

Yes I'm really dim

I think it's quite brave of OP to admit this.

Time to get real people

I can't even afford artificial people.

The Telegraph is reporting that parallel teams and home working will be 'the new normal' and has a quote of

^"The real new is - you're going to be working from home for a long time to come" said a source close to the blue print. "This isn't back to normal life".

Workers will be asked to come into the office at different times and stagger their lunch breaks.

The FT has a similar story saying hot desking to be curtailed, staff canteens to remain closed, no socialising during breaks, limit the number of people using a lift, floor tape to mark out 2m spaces, other retailers to protect staff with plastic screens, people encouraged to shop alone, retailers to have outdoor queuing where possible.

This is being discussed with unions. But the burden to small companies is being thought of as problematic and might stop some from reopening straight away.

It also says that the government is making the point that any changes to workplaces, schools and public transport will be gradual.

So no sudden end to lockdown however it goes.

And tbh thats how it should be.

Agree. The death toll is grossly inflated anyway due to the way they record COVID death and does not justify the response. Also, there's no proof that social isolation even works. This situation had proved how stupid and naive the general population is.

When I read this I realized that people are pretty ignorant and just don’t get it, even when the whole world, even Trump, are having to impose lockdowns and change...

So social isolation didn’t reduce deaths did it? In Wuhan, Italy, Spain, uk?

So glad even Boris isn’t this ignorant.

Sounds along the right lines Red.

Most of us are going to get it at some point and we will be just fine. So will our families and friends.

Erm, I think you’ll find there are tens of thousands of recently bereaved Brits out there who have lost a loved one to this virus?

Is this deliberate insensitivity?

You also sound like yet another one of the “Who CARES if older/ asthmatic/ cancerous/ immune compromised/fat people die anyway?” brigade.

There’s a definite whiff of eugenics around some of these arguments.

Millennialists at their best

Apparently covid 19 sufferers lose upto 30% of their lung function, my Late teens dc only has 50% to start with, quite frankly the corona virus gets a hold, & I doubt very much they would even get ventilated because I’m not sure you can actually live with 20% lung function. Pneumonia = PICU on more than one occasion. I guess ECMO might be an option, but there aren’t actually many of those on the country, So therefore they will probably die.

Other dc has an autoimmune disease, & is on immunosuppressants, so both are shielding. DP has underlying blood pressure issues,

So please excuse me op if I don’t get a grip & start returning to normal just yet, not totally convinced I’m quite ready to lose my children & my hubby

I wonder if maybe CV is something we will have to learn to live with. A risk that will always be there, that we’ll have to incorporate into our daily lives. A bit like road traffic accidents. We all know that every time we go on a road, as a pedestrian, cyclist or motorist , there is a chance we may have an accident. The accident may involve no injury at all, or it may kill us. And we never know which day it might happen. But day in day out we all go on roads.
I wonder if that’s how it will have to be with coronavirus. Because I can’t see how lockdown can continue until there’s a vaccine. There just isn’t enough money to support so many people not working.
It’s difficult - I worry about CV but I also worry about people’s mental health, and poverty.

There actually doesn’t seem a lot to be gained by hospitalisation though. There’s no cure and its mainly pumping through oxygen as treatment.

Having enough oxygen in your blood is kind of important to humans staying alive.

But if you don't think it is, you'll be happy to decline it as its pointless and won't help, won't you? You can stay home instead.

In terms of hospitalisation there are a fair few people who have oxygen treatment and survive who wouldn't otherwise.

There actually doesn’t seem a lot to be gained by hospitalisation though. There’s no cure and its mainly pumping through oxygen as treatment.

Are you a Doctor?

Mintychoc1 I agree. It looks like Corona is too widespread now. Even if it fades away there will likely be reservoirs of it somewhere that will spring back to life in localised outbreaks when conditions are favourable. - pinch of salt though, this whole post is just untrained speculation, just looking at how other endemic viruses behave.

The longer the scientists have to develop treatments, efficient testing, likely side effects of both the disease and the proposed treatments, the better. Every day brings new data.

Perhaps in time it will become one of those winter bugs like flu or pneumonia that people have to be wary of. Perhaps there will be an annual vaccine, like for the flu. Or maybe a one off, with occasional boosters, depending on how long the antibodies last or if there is much mutation.

This year, I'm hoping is the worst. Because of the sheer lack of knowledge, the R0 number isnt clear, never mind in different conditions, the mortality rate isnt clear, never mind in different demographics, the best treatment isnt clear, possible complications are still just being observed.

I hope as time goes on we will have the covid under some sort of control, like we do flu. Then we can address the problems left in its wake.

@cookingmywaythroughlockdown well said!

To stop them needing hospital care all at once. To "flatten the curve".

Why do you think they want to flatten the curve know? It's because if too many people need hospital care at once they will not be able to treat them and there will be many more deaths. Having a lockdown will therefore reduce the number of deaths.

If we go out to work again while not having some degree of appropriate fear about catching the virus, we won't be careful enough, people won't bother washing their hands, and cases will shoot up again. Reassuring people that catching the virus is no big deal is not helpful (that was the dominant message back in February, after all).

We need to stay appropriately and usefully afraid of catching or spreading the virus, so we are careful, and do things in as safe a way as possible. However, we also need not to be afraid of going out to work and life again. How to resolve that? We resolve it by working incredibly hard, collectively, to keep the number of cases of coronavirus as low as possible. This is where testing, contact tracing, quarantining, social distancing and so on come in. This is where we all have a part to play and can collectively make a huge difference.

Unhelpful (and untrue) reassurance: telling people "catching the virus is no big deal, don't worry". Unhelpful because it will lead to more infections again (very bad for the economy as well as health) and untrue because it clearly is a big deal, it's clearly not just a cold for lots of people, and it's quite rational not to want to be ill (potentially for weeks) even if you're not that likely to die.

Helpful reassurance: being able to tell people: "this is a dangerous virus, but cases in your local area are currently low and we’re tracing them so you’ll have some warning if they start to go up". Then people can know going out is relatively safe before they do. But then when they do go to work, they still have an appropriate level of caution about actually catching the virus (because it’s a scary virus, and the risk will be low but not zero), so they'll carry on being careful about hand hygiene, social distancing, letting employees wfh - all the things that we need so we can keep cases low.

There's no quick fix - even if you could magically persuade everyone not to care about catching the virus, all the would happen alongside their newfound confidence about going to work is that precautions would be abandoned and cases would shoot up - which also fucks up the economy. Telling people just to get real and get out there is not going to solve this problem.

I wonder if maybe CV is something we will have to learn to live with. A risk that will always be there, that we’ll have to incorporate into our daily lives.

If you have been watching the news or reading this newspaper this is what has been said for some time by experts.

There is not maybe about it. We will have to.

Do you talk like this in real life, OP?

Genuine question.

Also, do you take teams away on team building exercises and make them wear specially designed t-shirts? You kind of sound like you do. People like this don't care who wants to kill them so your reasoning is entirely understandable.

eeeyoresmiles good post

Reassuring people that catching the virus is no big deal is not helpful (that was the dominant message back in February, after all)

That's a very flippant version of the message - still being given out now - that the huge majority of people who catch the virus will experience only mild symptoms and make a full recovery.

We have far more supportive care measures and an ability to address opportunities infections and complications alongside the virus.
Do we?
Perhaps we do if the ratio of people to staff, beds and equipment in ICU remains manageable, perhaps even predictable (in terms of the demographics you might be expecting to see there). But will this play out exactly as it started?
We also have more obesity than in 1918, other conditions that are usually well managed (that can't really be compared to 1918), and larger populations. More reliance on global companies and supply lines for drugs, tests, PPE etc wherever you live in the world. I'd say a lot more concern surrounding how elderly and residential care can be steered humanely, based on the last 2 months, both for the residents and the workers that they need to function.

That's a very flippant version of the message - still being given out now - that the huge majority of people who catch the virus will experience only mild symptoms and make a full recovery.

Well, 'mild or moderate' has been the usual way it's put, where moderate includes some cases of pneumonia - anything short of hospitalisation but still potentially quite nasty.

Most of us are going to get it at some point and we will be just fine. So will our families and friends.

That's the OP - I would say that is precisely saying it's no big deal, and I don't think that's helpful. It's not even going to get the OP what she wants, if what she wants is a thriving economy and things as back to normal as possible. It's more likely to lead to a new wave of infections and further lockdowns.

Well, 'mild or moderate' has been the usual way it's put, where moderate includes some cases of pneumonia

Pneumonia would certainly not fit most people's understanding of 'mild or moderate' and has not been cited in the messaging I have heard. Anecdotally, the majority of people who have had the virus experienced lethargy and persistent cough which took a while to shake off.

I would say that is precisely saying it's no big deal you would say that but I say again that it is a flippant interpretation. Saying that people will be fine - i.e. complete recovery - is only repeating the scientific advice

Of course there will be further waves of infections once lockdown measures are lifted. Lockdown is not a cure for the virus, only a way of trying to control the speed of spread of CV through the population, which has happened. As long as the Govt is able to protect NHS staff with adequate PPE we will be able to come out of lockdown - that is the only impediment i can see.

Theres also the R0 number and the test and trace capacity.

@fliesandpies No we were told most people have it very mildly apart from the very old and those already close to death.
The message changed slightly as it became apparent it was not true.
Now the message is unless you have underlying conditions or are very elderly, you are unlikely to die if you catch covid 19. But the fact that some school staff and parents are vulnerable is ignored.

And some people are never hospitalised but are still very ill. And people are being left with long term lung and kidney damage. There may be other long term health issues.

@fliesandpies Yes viral pneumonia that can be managed at home is counted as mild with covid 19. Mild simply means you don't need to be hospitalised.

Most of us are going to get it at some point and we will be just fine. So will our families and friends.
Do you realise that whilst you comfort yourself with the thought that only the vulnerable will die, your "only" is my all? That "only" is my nearly 5 yo. So no, he won't be going back to school whilst they test the waters and DH will not be working from the office that is 2 buses away. I don't expect Boris to make decorating based on DS but I will, as will every other family for their "only the vulnerable" family member.