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Daily numbers, graphs, analysis thread 7

981 replies

Barracker · 28/04/2020 12:53

Welcome to thread 7 of the daily updates.

Resource links:
Worldometer UK page
Financial Times Daily updates and graphs
HSJ Coronavirus updates
Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Centre
NHS England stats, including breakdown by Hospital Trust
Covidly.com to filter graphs using selected data filters
ONS statistics for CV related deaths outside hospitals, released weekly each Tuesday

Thank you to all contributors for their factual, data driven, and civil discussions.Flowers

OP posts:
Thread gallery
127
Mumlove5 · 02/05/2020 21:33

@BigChocFrenzy

You can not make that claim. Impossible to know once we get all the data, which will take months. Even experts are of course saying this.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/could-the-lockdown-have-side-effects-no-one-has-considered

Think about the lockdown. We have substantially reduced the number of people circulating in the community. If lockdown is working, and stopping the spread of the virus, it might be reducing the circulation of milder versions among the population, while at the same time concentrating people with the most severe disease in hospital wards. It is an assumption that those admitted to hospital have severe disease because they mainly have underlying conditions. But what if some of them also have slightly ‘nastier’ virus particles? We are bringing them together in one place where they can infect staff and vulnerable patients. We are giving an advantage to the ‘nastier’ particles in the hospital environment. Despite protective measures, we are helping them circulate at the same time as we slow the circulation of the ‘milder’ particles.

So, lockdown might actually be slowing the tendency of this new disease to get milder with time. Which raises an important question: might the lockdown be causing more harm than good — in this way as well as many others? Are our actions really helping overall? Or are they opposing a helpful evolutionary tendency of the virus, as well as economically hindering our ability to deal with it? The epidemiological models are silent on this. What’s worse, their predictions of how the virus behaves will be inaccurate if such an effect is present.

Lockdown was not a policy that ministers seriously considered using until a few weeks ago. It clearly has major medical side-effects that no one considered. There are obvious ones (which should have been foreseen) such as much vital treatment and investigation for people of all ages, but especially the elderly, being suspended. But there are also more subtle effects such as the one discussed here, which are harder to predict, but potentially very important.

Mumlove5 · 02/05/2020 21:37

unherd.com/thepost/nobel-prize-winning-scientist-the-covid-19-epidemic-was-never-exponential/

As he is careful to point out, Professor Michael Levitt is not an epidemiologist. He’s Professor of Structural Biology at the Stanford School of Medicine, and winner of the 2013 Nobel Prize for Chemistry for “the development of multiscale models for complex chemical systems.” He’s a numbers guy — as he told us in our interview, his wife says he loves numbers more than her — but then, much of modern science is really about statistics (as his detractors never tire of pointing out, Professor Neil Ferguson is a theoretical physicist by training).

With a purely statistical perspective, he has been playing close attention to the Covid-19 pandemic since January, when most of us were not even aware of it. He first spoke out in early February, when through analysing the numbers of cases and deaths in Hubei province he predicted with remarkable accuracy that the epidemic in that province would top out at around 3,250 deaths.

His observation is a simple one: that in outbreak after outbreak of this disease, a similar mathematical pattern is observable regardless of government interventions. After around a two week exponential growth of cases (and, subsequently, deaths) some kind of break kicks in, and growth starts slowing down. The curve quickly becomes “sub-exponential”.

This may seem like a technical distinction, but its implications are profound. The ‘unmitigated’ scenarios modelled by (among others) Imperial College, and which tilted governments across the world into drastic action, relied on a presumption of continued exponential growth — that with a consistent R number of significantly above 1 and a consistent death rate, very quickly the majority of the population would be infected and huge numbers of deaths would be recorded. But Professor Levitt’s point is that that hasn’t actually happened anywhere, even in countries that have been relatively lax in their responses.

He takes specific issue with the Neil Ferguson paper. “In a footnote to a table it said, assuming exponential growth of 15% for six days. Now I had looked at China and had never seen exponential growth that wasn’t decaying rapidly.”

The explanation for this flattening that we are used to is that social distancing and lockdowns have slowed the curve, but he is unconvinced. As he put it to me, in the subsequent examples to China of South Korea, Iran and Italy, “the beginning of the epidemics showed a slowing down and it was very hard for me to believe that those three countries could practise social distancing as well as China.” He believes that both some degree of prior immunity and large numbers of asymptomatic cases are important factors.

He also observes that the total number of deaths we are seeing, in places as diverse as New York City, parts of England, parts of France and Northern Italy, all seem to level out at a very similar fraction of the total population. “Are they all practising equally good social distancing? I don’t think so.” He disagrees with Sir David Spiegelhalter’s calculations that the totem is around one additional year of excess deaths, while (by adjusting to match the effects seen on the quarantined Diamond Princess cruise ship) he calculates that it is more like one month of excess death that is need before the virus peters out.

More generally, he complains that epidemiologists only seem to be called wrong if they underestimate deaths, and so there is an intrinsic bias towards caution. “They see their role as scaring people into doing something, and I understand that… but in my work, if I say a number is too small and I’m wrong, or too big and I’m wrong, both of those errors are the same.”

He believes the much-discussed R0 is a faulty number, as it is meaningless without the time infectious alongside.

He describes indiscriminate lockdown measures as “a huge mistake,” and advocates a “smart lockdown” policy, focused on more effective measures, focused on protecting elderly people.

I think the policy of herd immunity is the right policy. I think Britain was on exactly the right track before they were fed wrong numbers. And they made a huge mistake. I see the standout winners as Germany and Sweden. They didn’t practise too much lockdown and they got enough people sick to get some herd immunity. I see the standout losers as countries like Austria, Australia and Israel that had very strict lockdown but didn’t have many cases. They have damaged their economies, caused massive social damage, damaged the educational year of their children, but not obtained any herd immunity.
“There is no doubt in my mind, that when we come to look back on this, the damage done by lockdown will exceed any saving of lives by a huge factor.

  • PROFESSOR MICHAEL LEVITT
He is philosophical about the future and sees this as a generational mistake:

I think this is another foul-up on the part of the baby boomers. I am a real baby boomer — I was born in 1947, I am almost 73 years old — but I think we’ve really screwed up. We’ve caused pollution, we’ve allowed the world’s population to increase threefold in my lifetime, we’ve caused the problems of global warming and now we’ve left your generation with a real mess in order to save a relatively small number of very old people.

  • PROFESSOR MICHAEL LEVITT
It’s a view that doesn’t fit the narrative, but which we felt deserved to be heard.
Derbygerbil · 02/05/2020 21:45

I think the policy of herd immunity is the right policy. I think Britain was on exactly the right track before they were fed wrong numbers. And they made a huge mistake. I see the standout winners as Germany and Sweden. They didn’t practise too much lockdown and they got enough people sick to get some herd immunity.

What evidence do you have that Germany and Sweden have as much, let alone more, “herd immunity” than the UK?

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2020 21:47

Other than punishing the government, it is pointless considering an alternate reality when we didn't lockdown

The 2nd post is a very long screed that I mostly can't read anyway because it is all crossed out

tootyfruitypickle · 02/05/2020 21:48

The spectator article is interesting and echoes what happened with the Spanish flu, but it doesn’t explain why some fit healthy people in the same household as others can get it so much worse - clearly having the same strain. It also doesn’t explain the clear patterns in terms of which groups are getting it worse.

Sparrow390 · 02/05/2020 21:54

Mumlove5 - could you please post all that on your own thread?

Derbygerbil · 02/05/2020 21:58

If lockdown is working, and stopping the spread of the virus, it might be reducing the circulation of milder versions among the population, while at the same time concentrating people with the most severe disease in hospital wards. It is an assumption that those admitted to hospital have severe disease because they mainly have underlying conditions.

It is also an assumption, and one I’ve not seen any evidence of, that there different types of Covid with very different effects - one mild and the other a killer. It feels like you’re desperate for any conceivable hypothesis to minimise Covid in order to undermine lockdown...

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2020 21:58

I live in Germany and we have no reason to think our immunity / infection rate is any higher than the UK
It may well be lower - we test far more and our % positive is much lower than in the UK

The study at the worst hotspot in Germany, the town of Gangelt, recently reported 15% immunity,
but researchers said this was likely to be far lower over the country
I have read 3-4%, slightly lower than most estimates for the UK

Our lockdown was tighter wrt shops - e.g. bike shops could only reopen last week -

and now we must wear masks / face coverings in all shops, taxis, public transport

but
generally more relaxed wrt outdoors activities
e.g. no limit on exercise, sunbathing and sitting on benches, provided distancing is maintained

However, a couple of areas with v high cases did have complete lockdown for a few weeks,
with no outdoor exercise allowed.

Derbygerbil · 02/05/2020 22:11

@Mumlove5

The article you quote from is interesting and seems to have a esteemed source... Esteemed or not though, I don’t believe the evidence is there to support his position, though I don’t think we know enough to rule it out entirely.

My view is that social distancing has been practiced worldwide to a significant extent - I’m not aware of anywhere that’s shrugged it’s shoulders and carried on as normal, or anything close - and that as Sweden seems to be showing, you don’t necessarily need to lock down to have a substantial dampening impact on numbers... We haven’t been as rigorous as China, but yet our rate hasn’t decreased as fast either.

WhyNotMe40 · 02/05/2020 22:18

Also people carry out social distancing almost instinctively. I know we do it if there's coronavirus going around school. If there's a nasty flu in the area.
I know I stopped taking my kids to swimming and soft play 3 weeks before lockdown and stopped cubs and scouts one week before. And I wasn't alone. That would explain the slowing surely?

Derbygerbil · 02/05/2020 22:19

He describes indiscriminate lockdown measures as “a huge mistake,” and advocates a “smart lockdown” policy, focused on more effective measures, focused on protecting elderly people.

I can understand the logic for that, but how would we have effectively protected the elderly had we not locked down?... Even with the lockdown we haven’t done a good job with care homes.

WhyNotMe40 · 02/05/2020 22:21

Unless all the old people are locked away on an island or something, they are exposed by their carers, shopping, etc

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2020 22:41

Scientists working on treatments and on vaccines have repeatedly stated that

  • because of the structure on the virus - there is no significant difference between the Coronavirus mutations, unlike e.g. flu

This simplifies the development of a vaccine against COVID

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2020 23:01

As shoots has posted before, lockdowns were not to protect the very elderly in care homes

  • no economic justification could be made for that -

but to protect:
the 40-65 age group of workers and
65-75 age group of recently retired, who would normally have several years life expectancy

The increased risk with age could mean many thousands of both age groups dying if there were a fullscale epidemic
and many times that number would be hospitalised, with long recovery times

Western countries in particular, with such a large % of their population being 40+
nearly all decided they couldn't take this risk,
at least not before building up their health services
and before doctors learned more about how to treat it

Once lockdown is released, countries may make different decisions about whether to return to lockdown if infection growth increases again

  • depends on whether voters would accept the extra deaths, or punish the government at the next elections
Derbygerbil · 02/05/2020 23:08

If lockdown is working, and stopping the spread of the virus, it might be reducing the circulation of milder versions among the population, while at the same time concentrating people with the most severe disease in hospital wards.

One point I didn’t make earlier... It doesn’t seem to make any sense at all.

Assuming there is a milder and a nasty version.... If lockdown stops the milder version from spreading and harmlessly infecting people, it’s presumably stopping this nasty version that kills people too, which is potentially far more nasty than is generally believed as it’s not just those who are elderly or with underlying conditions that are at high risk, we all are Confused.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2020 23:12

FT have updated the rolling 7-day daily death graph.

The UK, along with most other European countries is showing a gradual decrease in deaths
Turkey declining too, but Russia still increasing

The US is just starting to decline

Death curve has still not flattened in Brazil
(irresponsible far right leader who mocks COVID)

Daily numbers, graphs, analysis thread 7
7Days · 02/05/2020 23:13

How does Prof Levitts theory apply to places like Ecuador?

And I wonder too, how does the natural slow down work outside of an already locked down community. At what point would the natural slow down take effect in a business as usual world.

Levitt may well turn out to be correct. But it's a hell of a gamble, at the start of a pandemic with incomplete data, to basically hold your hands up and say No. We will do nothing let it rip through.

The political ramifications would be huge

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2020 23:15

"Assuming there is a milder and a nasty version"

Scientists working in the field state deny this
The difference in lethality depends on who catches it and how much of a dose they get

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 02/05/2020 23:22

Why 7days, what is going on in Ecuador?
Their Worldometer graph is bonkers but I assume that is just irregular reporting.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2020 23:23

Herd immunity would come from vaccination

Scientists working in this field all sound confident that one will be developed quickly,
so there is no need to risk letting the whole population catch COVID

Obviously we have to come out of lockdown soon,
the schools and 80-90% of the economy can gradually restart,
However, full normality - large indoor public events, holiday flights, trade fairs etc - probably won't happen before a vaccine

The economy can't fully restart anyway if the key market of "Grey Pound" consumers are locked up in their homes for the duration

NewAccountForCorona · 03/05/2020 00:28

It's around this time that I expect all the wanna-be experts to announce, definitively (with stats as proof) that (a) the lockdown was too late, (b) the lockdown was too early, (c) the lockdown was unnecessary, (d) the lockdown was too severe, (e) the lockdown was too lax, (f) whatever.

There is no doubt that without some sort of lockdown the death rate would have been worse; comparing Sweden to Norway suggests that the rate in the UK might have been up to five times France or Italy.

When we talk about the negative effect of the lockdown on the economy, it would be interesting to know what doing nothing would have done to the economy. The spread of Covid in meat plants in Ireland is just the tip of the iceberg of what might have happened if everyone had carried on going to work - not to mention the high rate of illness/death in London Transport Workers.

Doing nothing has consequences.

FiveOutOfFiveGoldblums · 03/05/2020 03:00

Morning
Hoping one of you could tell me what I am obviously missing: what are the numbers for recovered for UK and for Holland? If neither is publishing/releasing them, why not? Why have they not estimated based on release from hospital?
TIA

Derbygerbil · 03/05/2020 05:17

Scientists working in the field state deny this
The difference in lethality depends on who catches it and how much of a dose they get

I agree.... I was arguing that even if @Mumlove5 baseless theory was correct, it meant we needed to be far more scared of Covid, not less. I accept it was a pretty pointless thing to try and argue.

Derbygerbil · 03/05/2020 05:21

Why 7days, what is going on in Ecuador? Their Worldometer graph is bonkers but I assume that is just irregular reporting.

Ecuador is reporting irregularly and, even then, it’s figures are no where close to reality if reports are to be believed. It seems like their main city Guayaquil is possibly the worst affected place on the planet.

Derbygerbil · 03/05/2020 05:41

There is no doubt that without some sort of lockdown the death rate would have been worse; comparing Sweden to Norway suggests that the rate in the UK might have been up to five times France or Italy.

I’m not sure how you can use Norway and Sweden to come up with that. There is significant social distancing in Sweden, which has led to numbers not skyrocketing. I think they are where we will be in arrangements in (I hope) a few weeks when lockdown is needed.

Sweden could follow its strategy as, firstly. It hasn’t let things get out of control before taking measures, and, secondly, it’s not as densely packed, even in the cities.

Had we carried on regardless, on the basis of 0.8% fatality rate (which seems to be beat estimate from sornewhere like NYC where you unfortunately have a large population with significant number of deaths), and a 60% herd immunity level (which is quite probably too low) we’d be looking at 320,000 deaths, most of which would have occurred over a 3 month period, with around half by now.