Matt Hancock is really struggling to get his words out today!

[Teddypops]

Gosh he is struggling. Forgot the name of one of the advisers.

@Angellegna

So what would be enough then?

As I posted on another thread, my organisation contacted PHE weeks ago with the offer of supporting testing, particularly given the reported issues with test reliability. Not giving details as will be outing but I work in this sector.

We had a 'thanks, we'll come back to you'. Then nothing. We have followed up. Nothing.

Several diagnostics companies have experienced similar. Industry associations have been trying to coordinate an audit of capability, capacity and supply chain for at least 6 weeks I know of. Big Pharma have in places stepped in to support, as has been reported.

'Better' looks like MH outlining an actual plan of how he's sorting the testing debacle and contact tracing. Not just spouting numbers of targets to hit that any puppet could read out.

I expect anyone who holds this level of position in the govt to be able to handle a crisis, however unprecedented, which includes bringing other people together who know more than you to figure it out. That's called leadership. If you can't do it - move over.

Don't assume people critiquing the govt have a political agenda. Problem in this country is too many career politicians who've never had a real job and that's their only frame of reference.

They would say that the wouldn't they? Obviously we don't know for sure who is lying but I'd put my money on the suppliers having been in the position of being let down and then having to hear the excuses/lies. So "they" would say that? Is that cos they are foreign and therefore untrustworthy unlike our noble govt who would never ever tell a lie?

I totally agree that care homes should source and pay for their own ppe. As much as the government have got things wrong etc I don't see why they should help out this sector ; the homes are privately owned and it's up to their owners and managers to pay for the equipment for the staff So early on when they were told not to stockpile it because the NHS needed it more they should have ignored that?

Care homes have been closing for a few years as small homes can't breakeven on the fees they get. A home was shown on TV last week, the manager showed a letter from their local council which stated they were being paid under £500 a week per client. You think that sounds alot? Well why not take in a dementia patient and try and do it for £500 a week.

So people sat at home doing nothing can get paid up to £2,500 a month but these homes that are being charged extortionate amounts to get kit get no help? NHS discharging covid patients to them to take pressure off them and the homes seeded with infection. The NHS wouldn't be coping without the care homes and it is about time the British public stopped carping as they think someone is making money, if it is such an easy business why don't you do it?

The residents in care homes are citizens just like the rest of us, would anyone say to the partner of a covid patient that they need to go and source their own PPE? Of course not.

The care sector have been treated really badly.

Sorrow, I take your points on board and I know I sound heartless but care homes are happy to reap the profits when it suits them but not happy about paying for equipment their staff need. Dads care home have asked for money: I have donated but I still think they should pay for their own Ppe.

A care home is a place where people who are very vulnerable to the virus are all gathered together in close proximity, they are kindling for a forest fire and the sparks are provided by staff and visitors.
It's a disaster waiting to happen, but what else are we supposed to do with elderly people who are unable to live independently?

Does anyone know what end of life care the residents of care homes are getting if they have COVID19? Are they getting any at all?

The care home in Wavertree Liverpool )which was on television) has assets of £6 million - 18 out of 50 patients have died and still refusing to buy PPE - preferring to wait for state aid while more patients die

but what else are we supposed to do with elderly people who are unable to live independently?

Nursing homes should have stepped up infection control as soon as this was known about ( of course, they should have been doing it anyway) and employed barrier nursing much earlier than they did.

I generally agree that private care homes should pay for their own PPE. Ours has. They also locked down really early, haven't accepted any new old folks, and have generally done a really good job. However, and this is a very important point, and a chap was on the news the other night, some items of PPE have gone up in price by huge amounts, and if you are a small care home, you can't take advantage of scale. Things that cost pence, now cost pounds, so that is a big extra cost, even if you can find supply.

Does anyone know what end of life care the residents of care homes are getting if they have COVID19? Are they getting any at all

End of life, is end of life, whatever you suffer from. Protocols are the same. They will, hopefully, be getting appropriate drugs, love, care and attention. Again, many on TV and MN have confirmed the still get the support they need.

I'm not knocking my dads care place at all.

I'm query is about how the owners can ask for cash for equipment when they make a profit. It's the staff and residents lives that are in danger here yet they are hoping the government can step in because they think they are the same as the nhs! They should just pay out and maybe ask for a grant if things are tough. A government loan scheme might be a good idea in the short term? Profits should be used first.

If people in care homes are getting the kind of end of life care my mum had in hers, they’re very fortunate and infinitely better off out of hospital.

End of life, is end of life, whatever you suffer from. Protocols are the same.

Yes, but this is put in place when a resident is known to have a terminal illness and requires the input of GPS and possibly district nurses etc. It also takes time to set up.

Who is visiting residents in care homes who are suspected of having COVID19 and setting up end of life care? Are they getting syringe drivers set up delivering adequate pain relief and sedatives? Can anyone confirm this? Is a Dr examining them to determine the cause of the illness is COVID19? Have these residents said that they don't want treatment or is someone else making that decision?

Alsohuman

I'm glad that your mum received good end of life care. Presumably this was discussed with you and drs and nurses planned it and delivered it. Who is doing that now? Are palliative care drs and nurses going into care homes to set this up?

The government can make the rules so can force care homes to use PPE. In that case they would need to make sure there are supplies (they can charge for supplies).

It’s not shocking, it’s kindness. Hospitals are horrible places at the best of times when you’re old. Being looked after by people you know and have a bond with in your own space is much better.

Agree. My father died in a nursing home just before Christmas and we begged and signed all kinds of things to try to prevent him being carted back to hospital in the last month of his life. It was pointless and made him very depressed. Even the paramedics agreed the last time the ambulance was called (and we weren't there to stop the home doing this). One of the paramedics went to Sainsbury's around the corner to buy my father a low-alcohol beer instead, which is what he said he wanted. I could have kissed him for his commonsense and humanity. My father died two days later, peacefully, dosed with morphine, in the home. It was the best outcome for him after years of illness. The difference was that we could be there with him: I was sitting beside him as he drew his last breaths. It's so hard thinking of people dying without their families but it would be worse if it were happening in a hospital.

Matt Hancock has just said that the NHS has over 3000 critical care beds free and 10700 ventilators in total.
Great but not whats required, why are people told to stay at home (where some die) if there is so much unused resource?

Surely we should be looking to reduce death and suffering by earlier treatment.

Aside, he looks a lot better than yesterday.

Abraid2

Of course it's a kindness if it's what the individual wants and they are given good palliative end of care. You said that your dad had morphine and died peacefully.

But is that what is happening now? Are these people being asked what they want to happen? Are they being given morphine and sedation? People talking about having Covid are describing very distressing symptoms, the pain and struggling to breathe - are care home residents just being left struggling to breathe and in pain? Who is prescribing end of life drugs for these people?

Can anyone who works in a care home explain what is actually happening now in terms of palliative care for residents with COVID19?

No, Mum’s end of life care wasn’t planned, other than complete agreement on all sides that on no account was she to go into hospital. She was nursed with enormous love and skill and had morphine for the last four days. There was no involvement of palliative care staff and no need for it. Care homes look after dying people all the time.

jasjas1973

I totally agree. The capacity is only there because so many people are not being admitted to hospital. The thought of those in care homes being left struggling to breathe with nothing to ease their suffering is horrific. It's bad enough that younger fitter people are refused hospital care until they are so breathless that they can't talk. I find it very hard to believe that care home residents are getting better care than that.

I think those are fair points, hear. I was actually posting an addendum to my post to when the emergency plumber needed to access the room I was in and I had to exit.

I find it very hard to believe that care home residents are getting better care than that

Despite numerous people who have experienced it telling you they are. OK.

Sorrow, I take your points on board and I know I sound heartless but care homes are happy to reap the profits when it suits them but not happy about paying for equipment their staff need. Dads care home have asked for money: I have donated but I still think they should pay for their own Ppe. The point is many aren't reaping much in the way of profits, many have gone out of business. Some big chains are doing OK but not all. I know someone who invested their life savings to buy a home, in addition they took out a mortgage of around £500,000. Most of their "profits" go towards servicing their mortgage.

I have LPA for an elderly relative, they are in a wonderful home, it is run by a charity so no profit involved. We pay nearly 3 times what was shown as fees for the home on TV. It is well equipped enough to have an isolation wing, many homes aren't big enough for that, they are basically large Victorian family homes and isolation isn't easily done and yet the NHS are sending infected people back into them.

When a relative died of cancer last year they chose to die at home, we got all sorts of help and support. Why is that not available for the elderly if they aren't in their own home? They have as much right as anyone else to NHS support.

Alsohuman

Care homes don't prescribe drugs so a doctor had to prescribe it. The care home staff can't just administer morphine without it being prescribed.

I have been the registered nurse in a care home. I know the process.

Over 3000 critical care beds
But he neglects to mention that they don't necessarily have the staff required to make those beds operational

The care home in Wavertree Liverpool )which was on television) has assets of £6 million - 18 out of 50 patients have died and still refusing to buy PPE - preferring to wait for state aid while more patients die Assets aren't money though, you can be asset rich and not have a penny to your name.