So we are predicted to have the highest death toll in Europe, due to systemic errors made by this government. Do you trust the government to get us out of lock down safely?

[ssd]

I don't. They've f**d up too much. NHS managers are begging for PPE, NHS workers are dying.

This government have really really let us down.

We are predicted to have 40,000 deaths by the end of this.

The only silver lining is is that Labour might get its act together now Keir Starmer is in charge. Things can't get any worse.

And if any tory bots start saying 'at least it's not Corbyn'.. Well save your breath. No one could have made a bigger mess than Boris and Co.

Can I suggest if you don’t like what’s happening in the UK, once this is over go and live somewhere else and give us all a break

Finally, perhaps this crisis and all the comparison flying around, fair or not, will prompt a discussion that is more grown up around healthcare - ie do you want to pay more for it like Germany (being a young person starting out and paying for your own healthcare contributions is actually quite hard - people in the U.K. used to pocketing a larger portion of a low salary would be shocked)?

This is really important point & hardly even touched on when comparing countries like for like

@Selmaselma so what's an acceptable amount of deaths?

@EC22 there is a worldwide shortage of PPE. We are in the middle of a global pandemic. It is not growing on trees elsewhere either.

Health care in Germany is paid for from direct deductions from salary (about 8-10%). Are UK workers paying that much less?

@Chloemol they would be shocked elsewhere. I am not saying this country is perfect in any way. But other countries also have their downfalls. 700,000 lockdown fines in France for instance. Somebody fined because they were buying non essential sanitary protection. Somebody fined for buying one baguette a day and not two. At least this is what is being reported in the Dutch press. Correct me if I am wrong anyone.

there is a worldwide shortage of PPE. We are in the middle of a global pandemic. It is not growing on trees elsewhere either.
I hear exactly this from my medicine student ds in Denmark and my SIL in Germany who has spent her whole life working in the German healthcare system.

Given the reporting methods used in the UK with only hospital death being counted, it is possibly already the most affected country in the UK.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/money/2017/may/27/tax-britons-pay-europe-australia-us

This is quite a good article for looking at different countries tax systems.

@bool I’ve only read to page 9 but wanted to post before carrying on I think you’re my favourite poster ever.

@AvalancheKit, have a look at what I posted up thread about Corbyn. And if you have anything else to add rather than 'at least it isn't Corbyn', I'm all ears.

Until then, change the tune, it's boring.

I don’t think we can tell yet whether the government is taking the right approach. There was an interviewee on the radio programme PM tonight who pointed out how different countries report deaths differently. The UK has a dense population and there was a lot of international travel which seems to have allowed the virus to spread. Some things have been done well eg the furlough scheme and building the Nightingale hospitals so quickly. Other things seem to have been done less well - eg managing PPE supplies. I didn’t vote for this government but they have had to cope with the biggest challenge since WW2. Some of our problems go back many years - we are very reliant on global supply chains and this is causing problems when buying ventilators and PPE but that can’t be attributed to this government.

@Greysparkles All the ONS stuff says between 400 to 8,000 die in an average year from flu. The figure PHSE are quoting I have never seen before and I wonder where they get it from? It is at odds with ONS figures.

Other countries stopped international travel from affected countries and forcibly quarantined. We had people flying back from Wuhan and Northern Italy bringing the virus with them. We told people to self isolate. But many were getting public transport back home. There were people all over twitter at the time saying this will lead to disaster. But the government ignored it.

alloutof - Around 17,000 people die from flu annually.

@alloutoffucks Italy were the first country in Europe to ban flights from China and do temp checks through airports. Look what happened to Italy.

What do you think Labour would have done differently then? Magic some testing capabilities out of thin air? Miraculously whip up some PPE? Throw money into the black hole that is the NHS? Give everyone unlimited money for however long they need to stay at home until a vaccine? Stop repatriation flights? Started lockdown ridiculously early even though domestic violence has risen a ridiculous amount, people can't access basic services, vulnerable children have lost their safe haven of school (I know they can go, but many arent), and the death toll from cancelling some surgeries and treatments will be very high? Gone against the scientific advisors?

My experience is that there are two distinct types of people who are prepared - and still push on a daily basis - to destroy the NHS in pursuit of their higher aims:

1. 'Disaster Capitalists' in the form of existing and new pharmaceutical companies and international healthcare providers who want to enter the UK's health budget worth £150 Billion a year (but potentially worth much more with inroads into the social care budget). These organisations principally operate from within the US, but not exclusively. The US is good at Disaster Capitalism - it invented it. In exchange for funding the two Iraq wars that countries oil reserves are owned and controlled by US persons.

1. Left-Wing Extremists in the UK - often within the Labour movement - who seek the destruction of capitalism and personal wealth creation. They have chosen the NHS as their target. Many would love the NHS to fail under a Conservative government or a more right Labour Government. These people seek to scare-monger and pull the NHS down in pursuit of bringing society down.

Both types are very dangerous. The NHS and successive UK Governments (Labour, Conservative and Lib-Dem Coalition) over the last 40 years have pushed back at these dark forces which are knocking on the door every day.

Most countries did set up testing, made sure there was PPE, threw money at the problem, and those that managed to contain the virus are now slowly releasing the lockdown in steps. Why should that not have been possible for the UK, no matter which government?

Who knows what labour might have done? Who cares, they aren't in power, they aren't the government. If they were in power and did exactly as this government has done, I for one, wouldn't be on here defending them no matter what and desperately trying to deflect blame.

If it turns out after all this that the tories managed everything well and the death toll was lower than predicted, no one will be more pleased than me. I don't want the tories to fail here, there's too much at stake. I don't like them and everything they stand for, but if they come up trumps I'll be the first to congratulate them.

But going by what's happened so far, it's going to be damage limitation time, not congratulations they'll be getting.

My IL’s are Spanish, living in Spain. You know what the people in their town are complaining about?
Lack of PPE
The fact that the government didn’t act quickly
enough
Lack of transparency with the recording of deaths
People ‘flouting’ the lockdown rules, eg going out daily for a baguette
People over zealously policing other people’s actions

See... we’re not quite as different here as we like to think we are.

Who gives a stuff what Labour would have done? This isn’t their circus or their monkeys.

@ssd

Your op said the below

They've fd up too much*

This government have really really let us down.

The only silver lining is is that Labour might get its act together now Keir Starmer is in charge. Things can't get any worse.

No one could have made a bigger mess than Boris and Co.