Shocked by the news coming from care homes

[YogaFaker]

It seems that really vulnerable old people and those adults with conditions that need round-the-clock care are the sacrificial lambs in this government's inept non policies for dealing with COVID-19.

I find this shocking, really shocking. People are of value whatever their age. Yet the policy seems to have been to let them die, if they contract C-19.

There was a thread here or on aIBU which made claims for the preferential treatment of elderly people in this pandemic. I don't think so. The vulnerable elderly have been totally let down.

Shame on us.

@randomlychosen

A dementia patient can't be locked in their room.they would not understand it's for their own good or for the good of others.

If anyone tried to prevent my father from leaving his room the situation would become impossible.

I fully understand that even in lockdown the care homes are unable to prevent COVID getting in. Minimising it, yes, but carershave to go home, food and supplies have to come in. Taking as much care as possible is the only thing the care homes can do, by minimising external visitors and having the correct PPE. Even supposing they get the correct PPE residents like my dad would not understand the need for masks and would likely try to remove them forcibly from the carers.

@YogaFaker Why are you going on about the UK’s herd immunity approach? It was rapidly abandoned weeks and weeks ago when the data suggested it would lead to unacceptable levels of serious illness and death. Sweden by contrast, is still following a herd immunity approach. I do hope your German relatives are suitably horrified for the Swedes.

Thanks @Statistician999.

I find it so interesting how different countries have coped. We're never comparing total like with like so a policy that worked in place X may not be as effective in place Y. I hadn't realised Germany had no cities as big as London.

I'm interested to see how it plays out in Sweden with their relaxed policy.

I cannot believe that the care homes are blaming the government for not providing ope. Surely these privately operated care homes should have done their risk assessments and sourced thier own weeks ago.

@Hercwasonaroll

This article from Deutsche Welle (BBC World Service equivalent) gives an overview of measures taken in a number of European countries.

www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-what-are-the-lockdown-measures-across-europe/a-52905137

I feel the same Springcatkin
In the Bupa home my mum was in they charged £860 a week. They were always running out of incontinence pads and would regularly go the the supermarket to buy wipes.

I recommend a good book "In the Midst of Life" by Jennifer Worth (Call the Midwife was based on her early life.

Being Mortal by Atul Gawande is also very thought-provoking and moving - about death and care for the elderly, and the problems of too much medical intervention. Written by a doctor.

Sweden has a population of just over 10 million people. Greater London population is around 8 million. I think this is the major difference between Sweden and the UK (and Germany). Sweden also has a public culture which is appreciably different from that of the UK. They generally think differently about social responsibility, in what I"ve observed (having lived in Sweden, Germany, & the UK).

I found it appalling that care homes banned visitors more than a week before the lockdown (2 weeks before in my dads case), despite the fact that the (lovely, kind, overstretched) staff were likely to bring in the virus.
But guaranteed that people moved from hospital to care home (rather than back to there own home) to (hopefully) recover or (more often) have palliative care for CV?! It beggars belief, it really does.
And of course few residents will survive intubation. But some would with oxygen, which is not being offered.

Oh but of course! Herd immunity is an absolutely horrific idea when the UK is doing it. When our Swedish neighbours take it up however, it’s a sensible approach, because social responsibility and population numbers and other spurious arguments. Yeah right. Your venom and contempt for the UK is shining bright, OP.

Yeah right. Your venom and contempt for the UK is shining bright, OP

Yeah, everything is becoming clear now. The OP's motives are very, very obvious now.
I am LOL that herd immunity is great when its Sweden but horrific for us!
Of course. Let me guess- everything we do is crap, but whatever Sweden or Germany does is brilliant!

Surely these privately operated care homes should have done their risk assessments and sourced thier own weeks ago. They were asked not to stockpile as the NHS hadn't got enough. Poor fools listened. Blame them for that.

You misunderstood the point completely. It was that there are about as many people living in the whole of Sweden as there are living in Greater London. Obviously social distancing will be easier for Sweden.

What did Germany do differently? I'm genuinely interested. Who knows, I wonder if they had the German equivalent of the Cheltenham Festival with 250,000 attending in the week it was called as a pandemic, followed by the Stereophonics concert in Cardiff. Wasn't there a half marathon that weekend and how about Crufts. Can't imagine what could have caused any difference.

You misunderstood the point completely. It was that there are about as many people living in the whole of Sweden as there are living in Greater London. Obviously social distancing will be easier for Sweden

Well, Sweden's death rate is rising sharply- 1033 deaths so far and is higher than all their scandinavian neighbours. So it doesnt seem to be working out quite so well for them so far. I'm a bit scared for them tbh

I think we just find it bemusing that the OP first stated that herd immunity was a terrible idea but then went on to defend Sweden using it!

sorry that should be 1333 not 1033

Nope, didn’t misunderstand the point whatsoever. Yes, overall Sweden is more sparsely populated than the UK. But Stockholm would be far more crowded than say, large parts of Scotland. So using population density as the reason why herd immunity would work for the Sweden but not for the UK, doesn’t cut it.

But it’s not about people dying in care homes with covid19. It about deliberately introducing it into a covid negative care home and the inevitable spread. Introducing it by sending hospital tested covid19 positive patients from hospital to a care home.

This is horrifying. Are they previous residents? Or for example, are other older people who become very ill being sent to nursing homes instead of getting a hospital bed?

It is simply not good enough to say, oh well, if the person was living in the care home before deteriorating and going to A&E then it's fine to send them back there as everyone is probably infected already. That's appalling!

What about all those who AREN'T infected already?! There will be some and they are jeopardised by an infected person being sent back to the care home. It's not ok to gamble with the other residents and the carers

I suggest that those of you descending to personal abuse & utter fantasy about my "motives" and my patriotism, simply because we disagree over government policies for care homes & social care, watch Any Questions on BBC 1 tonight (it's on iPlayer) , and pay particular attention to Dr Rachel Clarke - a specialist palliative care doctor (author of Dear Life a book about the end of life) - and her answer to the first question asked in particular. Yes her "venom and contempt" for Britain shines through; or Lisa Nandy, Shadow Foreign Secretary. Yes, her "venom and contempt" for Britain is clear. As is the "venom and contempt" for Britain of each member of the general public who has sent in a question about the policy over social care.

They discuss a comparison between the UK and Germany - again, their measured discussion is very interesting. Dr Clarke suggests that the UK should have taken note of what was happening in Italy, Spain, and Germany; that we lost precious time. ahhh, but I suppose she's just venomous and contemptuous?

I'm sorry to hear that the Swedish policy isn't working. I hope they follow western Europe, and set up some sort of lockdown. Clearly herd immunity isn't working there either. Which suggests that it's not a great policy overall!

If you actually read the words I wrote, I made no judgement, adverse or otherwise, about the differences between Sweden & the UK - I simply noted that we have different public cultures. We are different. Although what I was suggesting was that the far lower population in Sweden (a sixth of the UK population, and an eighth of the German population) might make any policy easier to manage, including herd immunity.

Absentmindedwoman: absolutely, care homes are accepting /being pressured to accept patients from hospitals who WERE NOT resident of that care home before they were in hospital.

Care Homes are knowingly accepting CV-positive patients (sometimes tested as such, sometimes “just” with symptoms). CV is then spread via staff, equipment, or patients themselves (who are likely to wander into other rooms due to confusion.

People who work in the Home have a nightmare. Oh, yes, and up till now no one is allowed to visit, not even if they self-isolate assiduously. Appalling time to be old.

Yes, yes, of course shadow cabinet members will give an entirely unbiased, critical appraisal of the government’s actions, won’t they?

And even the medics and academics can only make educated speculations on what is/isn’t the best course of action or should/shouldn’t be done, because nobody actually knows without the benefit of hindsight.

They do take people who are being discharged from hospital who have been in the home or who haven't.

In my relative's home someone had been in hospital for a couple of weeks for something else, discharged without tests and then showed symptoms. Several people now infected.

People need to be isolated for 14 days before they are allowed into the home as it is very definitely endangering other residents and staff.

absolutely, care homes are accepting /being pressured to accept patients from hospitals who WERE NOT resident of that care home before they were in hospital.

Care Homes are knowingly accepting CV-positive patients (sometimes tested as such, sometimes “just” with symptoms). CV is then spread via staff, equipment, or patients themselves (who are likely to wander into other rooms due to confusion.

Thanks, @Saz12.

That is truly shocking. How is this being justified? Who is responsible for rolling out this idea?

It can't be some sort of NHS emergency protocol, surely? They know this will facilitate spread through an extremely vulnerable group?

Wtf is going on.

Have nursing homes just kind of been quietly written off as impossible to keep 'clean'?

And even the medics and academics can only make educated speculations on what is/isn’t the best course of action or should/shouldn’t be done, because nobody actually knows without the benefit of hindsight

Well quite a few medical academics I know (colleagues) were critical of government policies in late Feb/early March. Not hindsight, watching as it happened.