Shocked by the news coming from care homes

[YogaFaker]

It seems that really vulnerable old people and those adults with conditions that need round-the-clock care are the sacrificial lambs in this government's inept non policies for dealing with COVID-19.

I find this shocking, really shocking. People are of value whatever their age. Yet the policy seems to have been to let them die, if they contract C-19.

There was a thread here or on aIBU which made claims for the preferential treatment of elderly people in this pandemic. I don't think so. The vulnerable elderly have been totally let down.

Shame on us.

Fluffy,

Thank you for taking the time to write a clear and precisely argued post. It makes total sense and it is wonderful that there is still time to deliver personal care to those in need.

@fluffysocksgoodbookwine

Thank you!! Maybe now some of the PP will listen.

Thank you for your post, @fluffysocksgoodbookwine.

Thank you Fluffy for that brilliant post.

I think alot of people really dont realise how brutal invasive treatment like ventilation can be. I blame TV medical dramas for that where you see someone being resuscitated and then 5 mins later theyre absolutely fine. It would be cruel to ventilate or CPAP someone elderly and frail with advanced dementia. Utterly cruel.

Great Post fluffy

And interesting to read about what happened in Italy and how they messed up royally by admitting the frail elderly patients at the start and then running out of critical care beds rapidly.

Which is the point i've been making to the 'we have free beds' posters. We wouldn't if we were admitting elderly people from care homes and then that does result in deaths of younger, otherwise healthier individuals down the line who can't get a bed as it's taken up by an elderly frail person who is very, very likely to die anyway despite the intervention provided.

Thanks @fluffysocksgoodbookwine - your post is really interesting (and reassuring!)

I think what it confirms for me is that my shock at the news today is not primarily about medical treatment, but governmental policies - around PPE, lack of testing, and requiring that elderly COVID-19 patients be accommodated in care homes - as a poster upthread has told us, where there is currently no COVID.

My concern is not with medicos, who I'm sure make clinical decisions, but with the lack of leadership and ethics that our current government demonstrates daily ...

The "herd immunity" policy so vaunted by our Prime Minister was pretty much a death sentence for many of the people we're thinking about on this thread.

The thing with COVID-19 is that if you're sick enough to need admission, you will almost certainly need critical care, whether for high flow nasal oxygen, CPAP or (if unavoidable) ventilation.

Why do so few of our hospital admissions make it to ICU then? The stats are there for everyone to see. (Check ICNARC).

Good to see you retreating from your earlier stance of 'elderly peoples lives being judged as worth less' and 'being left to die' and 'sacrifical lambs' OP.

fluffysocks what do you think of untested people being moved from hospital to care home? My elderly relative is in now symptomatic after this happened in the home. Do you think it is reasonable to do this, do you think it is dangerous, if your relative was in a care home would you think this was acceptable.

To be clear this is a care home, not nursing home, so no qualified nurses and GP not attending but doing consultations via internet.

The care home where my gran lives are doing their very, very best to keep COVID-19 out, short of all moving in and being on all 24/7 (which wouldn't work because a) where would they sleep? And b) they're human beings with families and other caring responsibilities not slaves).

I can't imagine the terror that my gran would experience if she was moved from there to hospital - even worse a Nightingale hospital - she's been promised that she will stay where she is whatever happens.

I hope (and I know that there will be) someone kind to hold her hand at the end if the worst comes to the worst, but it would be cruel and futile to intervene beyond keeping her already incredibly frail body comfortable if she got this virus.

@fluffysocksgoodbookwine Great post, explains things really well. I think it should be widely shared to show people the true picture not the media frenzy.

it's taken up by an elderly frail person who is very, very likely to die anyway despite the intervention provided. and the other residents in a home whose lives are put at risk? Do they matter?

And those staff and their families who are also put at risk? So they not matter either?
I was told not to inform other residents families or staff of what was going to happen. Staff were not to know until on shift.

Somebodysringingabell, It is grossly offensive to suggest I believe people in care homes are disposable. I'm explaining WHY these decisions have been made. So could you explain why there is a need to discharge someone from a hospital that has capacity, not test them and send them into a care home where they possibly are the source of infection and death for maybe, 15, 20 or more people.

Good to see you retreating from your earlier stance of 'elderly peoples lives being judged as worth less' and 'being left to die' and 'sacrifical lambs' OP

No I'm not retreating from that. As I say, the shock is that we have had the most appalling leadership from our so-called government, which means that - as many knowledgeable posters who are care home workers & medicos have said on this thread - that there has been an almost criminal policy neglect of the elderly and vulnerable in care homes.

You could actually read my posts.

@1forsorrow.

Not what I said now was it?

Are you another who doesn't understand how viruses work?

By the time anyone becomes symptomatic after contracting COVID they have been infected and spreading it for up to 2 weeks.

Sending an elderly care home resident to hospital at that point doesn't protect other residents as they are likely already infected.

I for one wouldn't want the governments job right now. They have done the best in unprecedented circumstances. No one knows what they right or wrong decisions are. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I haven't seen any posts saying there's been criminal level neglect. Just elderly people not being taken to hospital which is probably the right decision for them.

Really @Somebody. But that's not in line w what @fluffysocksgoodbookwine was saying, I thought you agreed with her. Not even Matt Hancock is sticking up for that as acceptable practice.

I have read your posts OP. Your arguments were that elderly care home residents were just being left to die as their lives were less worthy.

Despite the numerous pages explaining no, that's not what is happening and why.

So I'll ask again, what do you think should be happening?

What's your solution?

Do you still think what you said previously despite ALL the èxplanations?

@1forsorrow Why would I explain that? I haven't at any point said I agree with that because I don't.

My posts have been about people wanting elderly care home residents with COVID to be moved TO hospital for treatment and explaining why that isn't happening and that it isn't that they are 'disposable' or 'just being left to die'.

@Porcupineinwaiting I have no idea what you think you're saying at this point.

that there has been an almost criminal policy neglect of the elderly and vulnerable in care homes

YogaFaker And yet you had a fantastic response from fluffysocks disavowing that viewpoint, yet you are still sticking to it, as you feel the need to make a political point.

Also, my DM's husband who recently went into hospital for UTI sepsis, from a care home. Or my MIL who was in last week for a dislocated hip. If the elderly want care, they get it. This is all just nonsense whipped up by the media.

It's not nice. It's not right to send covid victims into already populated care homes to recover.

Cynical part of me thinks that this solves the next five years of bed blocking for the NHS.

It seems that really vulnerable old people and....
How do you know this op? I admit that I haven't read the whole thread but what are you basing this on? Could it be that some elderly patients on palliative care are being moved to free up beds? There's a whole load of issues here and I don't think it's as clear cut as you're making out.
Ps are you the same person who started a very similar thread yesterday but had it taken down because it wasn't going the way you wanted??