This blind following of 'The Rules' is going to backfire when lockdown ends

[OtterPotter]

I have been really concerned at the attitudes I've seen on here and in RL of people's blind following of 'The Rules'.

The mentality I have seen here including outrage at people dancing in a park, or refusing to go for a picnic with their own children in a secluded spot because it's "AGAINST THE RULES!" demonstrates a complete inability to risk assess and interpret the guidelines.

What worries me is that same mentality will prevail when lockdown is lifted, and those same people will blindly follow the new rules and fail to appreciate that the risk is still real.

The day lockdown is lifted, the risk to yourself of catching it, and the risk of you spreading it to others remains exactly the same. The only thing that will have changed is that the government will have decided that the peak has passed, and the pressure on the NHS is lower - so they can allow YOU to risk catching it now. It can still kill you, it can still kill your family.

I'm deeply concerned that I'm going to have to have this battle with my rule obsessed family to try and convince them that they are still very much in danger.

I agree, OP.

What the lockdown has inexplicitly shown me is that a huge part of the population have

1. Zero critical thinking skills
2. Zero common sense
3. Zero ability to adapt/make the best of things

Which, when combined together makes for a pretty dumb selection of people. Those in group 1 will immediately put themselves in danger because they are blindly following what the government says, without understanding the science and/or logic behind it. So when the guidelines are relaxed, they'll relax too and throw caution to the wind.

Those in group 2 are either going so overboard with precautions against CV19, it's going to do them more harm than good (especially MH wise), or they're not taking any precautions at all, putting themselves and many others at greatly increased risk.

Those in group 3 aren't going to change what they're already doing because the government says so- they'll still continue going to the shop 6 times a day for one item at a time, etc. Just as they have been for the last few weeks.

Honestly, up until a few days ago I was very much in favour of a stricter lockdown. It's incredibly frustrating watching your partner go out to work on the frontline while you're at home (in a vulnerable group), knowing that every day, muppets are putting him at risk because they're stupid and/selfish. However, I can't change what people do. I can only take precautions. At least when the lockdown is relaxed, I can assess risks myself.

*Rest of us

Surely when the restrictions are lifted the intention will be that there are new cases. By then we will hopefully be at a point where the numbers of new cases will be manageable because lots of people will have already had it. Even the shielding of the vulnerable is not really intended to protect them as individuals but to prevent them all ending up in hospital at the same time.

Jingling “ We are still allowed out, it's not as if anyone had to stay at home 24/7.”

Yes, I’m still allowed my run. But the police are stopping people for smelling flowers in the park and telling them to move along.

Yes, I’m allowed out, but where do I go? I can’t sit in the sun in the park with my book. I live in a small flat.

I am occupied with lots of stuff, but the behaviour of the police really worries me. I can’t afford a fine. In this weather, I’d normally be out in the park morning and evening.

Surely common sense has to play a part?

I do not drive, cannot get online shopping delivered and have to go to the shops to get food. If I walk to the supermarket and it is busy I just walk straight back and go later. Obviously, provided I keep a suitable distance, it is safer for me and for the very frail and elderly people I share a laundry with, break the rues and go out twice rather than to keep strictly to the rules if it means that I have to navigate a crowded supermarket?

Last night on returning from the shops I bumped into my upstairs neighbour in the corridor. I hear her coughing all day long and know that she is quite unwell, a fact that her pale, clammy skin confirmed when seen at scarily close distance. I jumped backwards and tried to get as far from her as i could, at which point she started shouting "I don't have it!"

She has a new continuous dry cough and is not self-isolating. Hopefully she has been recently struck down with some other cough than a covid cough, however I cannot be sure. All I know is that she has symptoms and it not self-isolating.

I have phoned the police about her. Not heard anything back and she is continuing as before.

I spoke to a manager from the housing association and was told off for trying to police the behaviour of my neighbours. The HA actually told me that she had given up trying to persuade tenants to change their behaviour and just had to accept that some of them will get sick and die.

It is not just nursing homes that are facing a horrific situation, is it sheltered housing where vulnerble people are refusing to comply with the rules.

I am extremely stressed about it and absolutely horrified that the HA manager has just accepted that the tenants are going to get sick and die. Sadly because of the shared corridors and laundry when the virus hits it is likely to take many people away.

I’ll continue to safeguard my and my family’s household(s) and we’ll likely be okay as we can all work from home for the foreseeable future. Everyone else will have to navigate it the best way they know or understand how, for better or worse. Many people will die, sadly that much is inevitable

Same here, but I have family members who may put my parents at risk if they refuse to understand the risks remain. That's what worries me at the moment.

But this thread is just going to turn into a big bun fight now Oh god I hope not! There has been some really intelligent discussion, it's a relief to me to see that some people see things clearly!

It’s an arrogance to think you can assess risk as well as informed experts. The issue of driving raised by the OP exemplifies it. The OP assumes they have all the information they need to assess the risks. But she doesn’t. She has some information based on what she observes. This is limited.

First up she is assessing the risk to her, not to society. The scientists who inform government decisions are dealing with multitudes of risks to the population not just to her. Acts at an individual level may have minimal risk to that person. But at a population level result on 10’s if not 100’s of thousands of deaths. The OP is making very simplistic risk assessments about her own safety. She is not taking responsibility for her community or the wider society. She doesn’t have the information to do this and she probably doesn’t have the knowledge to use that information wisely.

These decisions are made by diverse groups of experts with a wide range of information and knowledge. None of us have that. It is ridiculous to think you know better and it shows your own stupidity.

I think a lot of people think once lockdown is lifted, it will be over. Survival of the fittest, then.

Pepepig “ So when the guidelines are relaxed, they'll relax too and throw caution to the wind.”

Can you give me an example of what you mean please?

Looking at the cinema example- when you’re allowed to go, you’re allowed to. Hopefully messages about handwashing will keep up.

But what caution will be thrown to the wind?

When lockdown ends social distancing will continue for awhile the "rules" will be slowly relaxed not a free for all

@LemonTT your assertion is ridiculous. OP’s example is perfectly fine from a societal perspective too as anyone with even a limited understanding would be able to see. Honestly this is the kind of dumb shit that really irritates me.

Yes, I’m still allowed my run. But the police are stopping people for smelling flowers in the park and telling them to move along God that is worrying - the police have been warned for over extending their powers and misinterpreting the law on several occasions.

I do not drive, cannot get online shopping delivered and have to go to the shops to get food. If I walk to the supermarket and it is busy I just walk straight back and go later. Obviously, provided I keep a suitable distance, it is safer for me and for the very frail and elderly people I share a laundry with, break the rues and go out twice rather than to keep strictly to the rules if it means that I have to navigate a crowded supermarket?

Yes of course it is - you've assessed the risk from your own personal situation and are trying to find the most risky solution. My heart goes out to you. I hope your neighbour is ok.

When we evaluate the risk we are thinking about our personal survival, when government evaluate the risk they are thinking about society as a whole rather than individual people

I completely agree.

I’ve always banged on to my family about hand washing, touching surfaces and then your face, disposing of contaminated tissues etc etc. My family have always teased me about it. We rely so much on antibiotics and the general health of the population to keep us safe, but if we were all a lot more careful in general the incidence of other viral spread would be lower.

It’s important to consider government advice but it’s much better for individuals to make their own assessments for their own circumstances. It will never be safe, but the risks will change, and you should act accordingly.

Critical thinking is needed.

OP - my sister and I live in different London boroughs and the police actions are worrying both of us.

I couldn’t go to the supermarket and decide the queue was too long and I’d go back later because what if my neighbours see?

The mgmt Co have said to report anyone breaking “the rules”.

The current situation is terrifying. I cannot wait for lockdown to be over.

So rather than "lifting lockdown" as you put it, it will probably be relaxing some rules and putting other guidelines in place. I'm not seeing the concern to be honest.

@OtterPotter
I agree with you and I thought that you made your point in your op and subsequent posts.
Sadly this thread has confirmed everything you fear could happen will happen.

No, the lockdown isn't that bad, unless you are living somewhere unsafe obviously, in which case I imagine it's Hell.
I'm following the government guidelines to the letter and managing fine.
It's the neighbourhood curtain twitchers, the accusations of killing nurses if you take a 2 hour walk in a quiet place, the shopping basket police, the strangers shouting at other people for being in the woods when they are in the woods..that's the hard bit.
But you can't run a country like that, because some people don't have valid "powers of reasoning nobody is saying the government shouldn't give people guidelines. And,no , many many people's reasoning is utterly fucked, in a way I couldn't have believed before CV19.

Lilac,

It's fairly obvious, is it not? Eg: no mixing of households. If the government came out tomorrow and said that households could mix again, you really don't think there would be tonnes of huge family BBQs happening with all the nice weather/people being bored at home?

There would be people who would adapt this new advice with caution. Perhaps only visiting non vulnerable family members, or sitting very far apart in a garden for a catch up, with hand washing and the other guidelines being followed. There will, on the other hand, be those who have a huge get together and don't care because the government's said it's fine and the police can't fine them anymore.

OtterPotter - you sound a bit smug. As for risk, prior to covid 19, people took risks with their elderly relatives all the time. Selfishly visiting them with their small, snotty-nosed children, hugging them, etc, even when they were going through cancer treatment, even at Christmas when they might give them the flu, etc. When the rules say it is OK to visit family again (NB OK, not that you must...), then I would have thought it’s up to the elderly relatives whether they would rather remain isolated or risk death by physical proximity with the people they love, and not up to OtterPotter.

The OP assumes they have all the information they need to assess the risks. But she doesn’t. She has some information based on what she observes. This is limited.

I have all the information I need to assess the risks based precisely on what I observe - e.g. how many people do I see on my walk (answer - none); how many gates or styles do I touch (none) - so what remains is risk that someone else may have passed that way before me, and their droplets may remain in the air long enough for me to inhale enough of them to become infected - or someone may come after me and breathe in my droplets. I balance that against the risks that I observe by walking through town - how many people do I see on my walk (dozens), how many gates do I have to touch (several, including through people's farmyards) - what are the risks to me and others who may come after me - considerably greater.

This is more an argument why I should be able to see my elderly mum now. What do you expect people to do? Not see elderly family till there a vaccine, and oops, look, mum died alone while she waited

I’m in the shielded group. I miss my children and grandchildren so much. However, I’m glad my children have enough sense not to bring the family around to see me as soon as lockdown is lifted.

Not because I don’t want to see them. But because the risk to my life is too great. I feel so lucky to catch up with them on FaceTime every day, and will continue to do so for as long as it takes.

police actions are worrying both of us
And this is in a country where we have policing by consent, a police force which are not routinely armed!
Presumably in other countries where the police are routinely armed they took even greater liberties?😱

Yes of course it is - you've assessed the risk from your own personal situation and are trying to find the most risky solution. My heart goes out to you. I hope your neighbour is ok.

Thank you

I hope she is OK too because if she is as ill as she looks and sounds lots of people where I live, possibly including me, are going to die

I couldn’t go to the supermarket and decide the queue was too long and I’d go back later because what if my neighbours see?

One of the worst rule breakers here is a disgusting bully. I have no doubt that she is reporting other tenants at the same time as breaking rules herelf. Her recent activities include coughing in my face for a laugh, meeting up with people in a car and having other tenants visit her in her flat.

She can report me all she likes. The local CCTV will show me going to the supermarket and turning back if it's busy. Bring it on.

Surely when the restrictions are lifted the intention will be that there are new cases. By then we will hopefully be at a point where the numbers of new cases will be manageable because lots of people will have already had it. Even the shielding of the vulnerable is not really intended to protect them as individuals but to prevent them all ending up in hospital at the same time.

Yes of course that’s the intention, but management of cases will only go so far - it won’t prevent all deaths. People will die, and some of those will be preventable deaths. OP is worried about her parents, because it’s likely they will be at risk due to their or others’ lack of understanding. On a societal level of course shielding of the vulnerable is for the greater good of all, but on a personal level it absolutely is about the protection of the individual too.

Same here, but I have family members who may put my parents at risk if they refuse to understand the risks remain. That's what worries me at the moment.

Perhaps you need to try to get through to your parents then, if they have control over who does and doesn’t come into contact with them?

I’ve come to the conclusion quite a while back that I simply won’t worry about it - until such a time as I have to freak out, I’m just going to ride out the storm. There’s not much else that can be done. I have a daughter who is vulnerable, and my DH has family members who are older and more at risk. We don’t know what will happen but until it actually happens I’m not going to give it too much headspace. As far as I’m concerned it’s a waste of precious life, which seems worse against the backdrop of the loss of so many lives during this pandemic.