Is anyone else angry and embarrassed right now ?

[Sapphiresunrise]

For the developed and resourced country that we are, we are potentially going to be overtaking Italy and Spain by the looks of things.
Australia and other nations have death rates in double figures. They were smart to close borders and even close regions. Canada the same. Denmark, etc. The list goes on. South Korea have the situation under control.
We were warned about this. I feel like majority of those deaths could have been avoided.

@1300cakes
I noticed that the three Murdoch stooges, Morrison, Trump and Johnson were the three to take this least seriously in the beginning. Hope you’re keeping safe down there.

I did claim that China’s overall response, taken as a whole, was more effective, consistent and coherent than that of the British government

This is what I don’t get. Have you ever even lived in China? Do you know that numbers from the government are usually not to be taken at face value? Did you read that Washington Post article I linked? That article estimates that the number of dead could be over 40,000.

There is compelling evidence that China has fiddled with numbers, so we cannot really evaluate what they’ve done or not done; one thing is for sure that they shut the door once the horse bolted around the fucking globe.

This is another thing that annoys me. You can make claims about the British response being slow and ineffective or even dangerous without holding China up as some example to follow (for reasons that I’ve outlined, the Chinese way would not even be replicable here).

Also, I find it odd you imply that East Asian countries employed similar strategies, but that’s not true at all and frankly a bit racist.

I feel very angry at china, they were warned about their terrible animal cruelty 'wet markets' when SARs broke out. The wet markets are still going now.
I didnt know much about them and googled it, I wish I hadnt as the animal cruelty is eye watering. The terrible animal husbandry of wild animals who are known reservoirs of disease.
They then lied about the magnitude of the virus by a factor of between 15 and 40...
My kids arent at school because they treat their animals so bloody badly. My husband may be made redundant. I'm very angry!

To reassure @Blossomad & anyone else concerned about it, the possibility that blood type may influence your chances of getting COVID-19 is just that, a possibility.

Several news outlets have picked up on a single fairly small-scale study that’s not been peer-reviewed; it was published somewhere meant for academics to kick new ideas & research about, but some sections of the press have (whether through rank stupidity or staggering & shameless lack of regard for need to report responsibility, or perhaps some deeply unattractive combination of the two?) leapt on it & announced it as fact. (Debunking courtesy of USA Today)

(To be clear, not blaming Blossomad for posting it/saying think she did so in bad faith. Of course you’ll share things that have come from media outlets you trust. Which is what makes me so cross when they misrepresent things.)

potentially and in theory the government could get data from people's phones which would give a good picture of their movements during the lockdown period, does that sound right?

This is already happening. Google maps is providing the data - I'll try to find it in a min.

If so could there be consequences for people who really took the piss

This is not because the data is anonymised. Legally this would be a big step - to use phone data to find the crime rather than apply for permission to use one persons specific data to help prove one (which does happen). Not one I'd be happy with, tbh.

If we had locked down early Feb then the travel to Italy for ski trips would not have happened, we would have realised Italy was a catastrophe and dodged a Big bullet.

I have asked this question over & over but how would the government have managed this lockdown? It's absolutely crazy to think that 66m people would have been happy to have their freedoms curtailed before the virus even had its name (11/02) & before a single death in Europe (14/01). You need compliance, people have to want & understand the need for a lockdown!!!!

@ShanghaiDiva China had reported cases in November and did not shut down until January.

China here desperately trying to make this look like they handled it very well, had low death tolls and that it’s the rest of the world that are a ‘threat’ to them.

I don’t believe a single thing the Chinese government say. I don’t believe the figures they release.

Boris has blood on his hands

Well frankly that’s the sort of ridiculous hyperbole we’ve come to expect of socialists even before the Coronavirus crisis so I don’t see why you expect saying it to have any impact now.

'that had happened the numbers of infected would be far lower, more manageable for the NHS, effectively we have been mixing it around the population since that time. If we had locked down early '

For the trillionth time wehtam, our NHS is managing. People will sadly die, it is a pandemic so blame China. Lockdown from Feb would never have worked, people would not have complied.

A friend has just done a nightshift in a city hospital, an area where there are lots of cases, however there is plenty of capacity and their designated Covid intubated team did not thankfully intubate one person all night.

@oldbeforem
China has handled their containment process well. They have traced contacts, been tough on movement between cities and tested, tested and tested. Of course, this does not negate the fact that the initial delay/cover up has had massive consequences for every country in the world.

Of course, this does not negate the fact that the initial delay/cover up has had massive consequences for every country in the world.

Exactly. I hope the world stops importing so much from China after this to be honest. China handled the process of lockdown well because as you know they have measures where you are that would not be tolerated here because it's just different (not commenting on what I think is better or judging), so it's pointless comparing really.

I don’t believe a single thing the Chinese government say. I don’t believe the figures they release.

I agree. If anyone has blood on their hands, it’s them.

I don't think anyone believes their figures, aside from the very naieve.

China has tested and tested and tested - just as well with a population of 1,400,000,000 as opposed to our population of 65,000,000.

Our leaders have such a stellar record of truthfulness.

@PieceOfMaria I am not a socialist. I have no time for lazy stereotypes.

What they should have done at the very beginning was isolate and contact trace those coming back from Italy. WHO told our government to do this, it was ignored.
WHO have also said the China numbers are accurate.

It is not lock down versus wash your hands. Our government refused to do anything except say wash your hands and self isolate if you have symptoms or someone in your household has. That is it. We have all said on this thread many times other basic things they could have done. Encouraged people to wear cloth masks, to maintain social distance, banned large gatherings, advised against all but essential travel abroad, encouraged working from home, stockpiled PPE and ventilators, tested, isolated and contact traced, had public information films about all this from February.

Instead every step of the way the general public have been doing things before the government. Everything from avoiding events to pulling their kids out of school. And every step of the way people on this thread have been calling us ridiculous and saying we are over reacting.

@ShanghaiDiva you think they handled the containment well? Then how did it manage to spread and become a global pandemic?

Everything China says is to make it look like they’ve handled it well and it’s the rest of the world that haven’t.

It would seem that they have lied about the death toll by a huge margin which suggests it was contained very very badly.

'China has handled their containment process well. They have traced contacts, been tough on movement between cities and tested, tested and tested. '

China's numbers should be completely ignored, as others have said they are clearly lying. What they need to do now is show the world how they are closing down all their revolting markets and addressing their appalling animal rights issues to prevent this ever happening again.

At some point the penny will drop that the only way out of this is group immunity through vaccination or by getting it and producing antibodies naturally. All we are doing with lockdown is slowing that process down so the NHS can cope. South Korea and China is not a sustainable position and the measures to achieve it are not consistent with the freedoms we are used to and the majority will wish to keep. Shield our vulnerable until that happens. But the more we suppress the curve the longer the whole thing will take. It will be suppressed just enough to stop the health systems collapsing.

What we do need though is extensive random community testing (or those with and without symptoms) to get a true picture of its spread in the community. Only that way can we really make proper judgements about lifting lockdown.

@bool

You’d think it would have by now.

However some people seem to think that if we had a different government we would have been able to emerge from a global pandemic with 3 deaths and a great economy. As if the UK are special and should be able to avoid the fate that every other country has or will face...

@Aesopfable yes agree.

@oldbeforem yes agree.

The penny will eventually drop.

Okay go ahead and mock and set up strawmen. No one has said you can emerge with 3 deaths and a great economy. We just think there is a better way than letting most people get the virus and see who is alive at the end, and calling it herd immunity.

@oldbeforem
If you look at what is happening in China now it is clear that the threat is now from the virus coming back into China: hence closing the border to foreigners including those with residence visas. Whether you believe the numbers or not, my city now looks very different: dd’s School is open again with staggered starts, restrictions have been lifted, restaurants open etc, but social distancing measures are still in operation.
My comments refer to the processes implemented within China to contain the virus and manage the process in China.

@oldbeforem
If you look at what is happening in China now it is clear that the threat is now from the virus coming back into China: hence closing the border to foreigners including those with residence visas. Whether you believe the numbers or not, my city now looks very different: dd’s School is open again with staggered starts, restrictions have been lifted, restaurants open etc, but social distancing measures are still in operation.
My comments refer to the processes implemented within China to contain the virus and manage the process in China.