Vulnerable children locked up in flats, deep recession, mental health eroded a future generation screwed

[Borkins]

I hope it flattens that curve. I hope it saves lives. Because huge sacrifices are being made.

I of course understand not wanting to overrun th NHS and physical distancing is the only ‘weapon’ we have against it.

AND a consequence is for our vulnerable children they are lost because it’s their parents who don’t show up and don’t care. Really I think it’s hard to appreciate the neglect and what some children live through.

I don’t know what to do. I see the problem. I don’t know how to reach them.

To those accusing people like me who are raising questions of being somehow ageist; it’s nothing to do with the age of the most vulnerable group. I’d be asking the same questions if it was 0-5 years olds that were most susceptible.

And I do understand that we are ‘flattening the curve’ and trying not to overwhelm the NHS but I’m still pondering whether it’s worth it for the utter disaster this is unleashing for decades.

How many other people with serious illnesses will die now and in future for conditions undiagnosed or untreated for weeks or months. Hundreds of people a week get diagnosed with cancer and the faster you get treatment, the better outcome. No one is getting diagnosed because no one can get to gp or consultant.
End of life patients are being left in pain to die because community nurses have be redeployed. (See awful thread on her about ovarian cancer patient )

We’ve just done 10 years of world wide recession ..... we are about to start again and it could be worse.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52045797

And to those (idiots) saying “it’s only been 2 days” - exactly!!! Other posters have already posted the link to DV upsurge already happening in just 2 days.

We are sacrificing generations to this to keep one group ‘safer’ & I’m not sure it’s worth it. And yes I’d still be saying that if my mum, dad were the ones to die. And what’s more, they’d agree with me.

If you genuinely think we’re‘sacrificing generations to keep this one group safer’, you haven’t understood what’s going on here or what the alternative is.

This thread is disgusting. It's also young people who are dying. It's also vulnerable people who might be single parents. It's teenagers with asthma and diabetes.

It's also disgusting that some think that the elderly should just go die. These are the people that paid taxes for all these years to make many things possible, like schools for you and your children, fire stations, police, roads and hospitals. Everything around you that you take for granted, they paid for it. So after paying their whole lives for that they can just suffer and die? Just because you don't want your child at home for a few months? It's not surviving the bloody trenches. You will get through it alive.

Saying that a whole generation is screwed is an exaggeration and scaremongering. The vast majority of people will bounce back from this without permanent damage. Look at how wealthy Europe became after two horrific World wars in 2 decades. A pandemic over the course of a few months - maybe even a year - isn't going to fuck up an entire generation.
However, as always, those that are already vulnerable will be the most affected. Life is deeply unfair in that respect and we still haven't worked out a solution. But these people are not the majority.

As other posters have said, lockdown isn't about protecting only the old. You need to read up more on the subject if you really haven't grasped the reason for lockdown.

Just to maybe add my voice to other posters who have mentioned that this is about protecting the health service as a whole rather than the elderly specifically.

I am in France where we are ahead of you in terms of infections and deaths. 50% of those on ventilators here are under 60. Fit and healthy people are being infected and require ventilation to survive. The majority of these patients will survive because we currently have enough ICU beds and ventilators ( though not everywhere - we are already having to fly/train patients from one area of France to others as the worst hit spots have already run out of beds).

If we don't "flatten the curve" those healthy 20-59 year olds will also no longer be able to find a bed as they will all be full. Which means that they AND the elderly who already are likely to have been triaged out of a bed will die. Thousands, potential hundreds of thousands of us. And that's without people who could die because they need an ICU bed or ventilator for other reasons - now is not a good time to have a heart attack, a stroke, a car accident, contract pneumonia and other conditions which affect the population on a daily basis.

And people who want to protect the economy, how many people do you think will be out shopping, at restaurants, bars etc.. while healthy people like them are dying in their droves? Who will be working when they are either stuck at home waiting for a bed or in crowded hospital lying on the floor as we saw in a Madrid hospital waiting to be treated?

And I'll leave you with a thought as to how serious this could be - we are starting to struggle and we have 3x the number of ICU beds per head than the UK does.

This is serious, staying at home will have long and far reaching consequences, especially for some, however the alternative could really be far, far worse. We can avoid that future, but only by all doing our bit.

We are sacrificing generations to this to keep one group ‘safer’ & I’m not sure it’s worth it.

Elderly, asthma, overweight, diabetes and coronary problems are not one group! That is a lot of people!

.... trying not to overwhelm the NHS but I’m still pondering whether it’s worth it for the utter disaster this is unleashing for decades. How many other people with serious illnesses will die now and in future for conditions undiagnosed or untreated for weeks or months.
You've contradicted yourself there in 2 paragraphs. If we don't flatten the curve, the delay in diagnosis of life threatening illnesses will be even worse than it is now!

If two thirds of the people dying of corona were going to die within a year anyway,

How on earth would you know if they were going to die anyway??

I’d be asking the same questions if it was 0-5 years olds that were most susceptible.

No you wouldn't, because you know what answers you would get.

How have such a generation been raised that they are wishing death on a whole generation they do not know so that their life can continue in its smooth path.

Disgraceful, isn’t it? I’m still shocked by the previous poster’s friend who’s a nurse on an elderly people’s ward and apparently thinks we let older people live too long

We are sacrificing generations to this to keep one group ‘safer’ & I’m not sure it’s worth it.

I did a little number crunching yesterday. If 80% of all age groups contract this, based on current mortality rates for those infected, in the UK:

0.2% (11,800) of infected 10-19 year olds will die
0.2% (11,800) of infected 20-29 year olds will die
0.2 (11,800) of infected 30-39 year olds will die
0.4% (23,600) of infected 40-49 year olds will die.

Etc. Etc. No it's not just the old and the unwell either, though they are more likely to die. And those numbers presume that everyone who needs a ventilator can get one and don't take into account people who would die of something other than coronavirus if they couldn't get access to medical care because of pressure on services.

People with the problems quoted should be paid to be sterilised so they continue drug, shagging, gambling, smoking etc without abusing kids

I mean, that's five average-sized secondary schools of children dead. That'd probably have an impact on the whole generation. Most of them would lose someone.

12 weeks of lockdown, for most kids? Not so much.

Also, I rounded to the nearest 100 for the 11,800 figure and doubled that for the 0.4% but the actual number is 11,840 so the 0.4% should be 23,700, rounded to the nearest 100. Apologies.

Exactly @kersh33, and I bet many who say they wouldn't feel differently if it was children or younger people mainly affected absolutely would. Hope you are managing to stay safe.

Ffs
I give up
No there is no debate
You are all absolutely right
This will have no impact whatsoever. Lockdown till September.
I’m being ridiculous worrying about children living in abusive households, women living with abusers and the impact of a world wide economic recession.

It will all be absolutely fine as long as we stay indoors.

By all means, worry about them @Effic. But I don't see what good it will do, given that we don't really know who lives in an abusive household in most cases, and putting the schools back in session will kill thousands, so isn't really an option at this point.

I just see very little concern for the effects on some vulnerable people of lockdown
I don't think older people are expendable, I have older people in my own life that I love.
I just resent over simplification. Slogans such as, you just have to sit on your sofa for a month.

It really isn't the case for a lot of people. Lives will be damaged, even lost, as a consequence of lockdown.

@Effic - totally agree with your post

That was me who said about my friend.
Having seen my gran - aged 96 - have no quality of life and battle dementia for the last two years but be kept alive I agree.
That is what she means. People who are very ill, no quality of life - we do sometimes keep people alive when the outcome is never going to be good and quality of life is poor. I’m not sure why that’s hard to understand. She didn’t mean a well 85 year old. She meant people who are suffering with no chance of quality of life improving. My gran many times wanted to die and if she had died earlier it would have been better for her. He last two - three years were absolutely horrendous.

It's nothing to do with blaming pensioners or wishing them ill. It's simply pointing out there is a price to pay, a price that will mainly be paid by the young in the long term, and the vulnerable in the short term.

It isn't about the average mumsnetter's dc having a few shit months, I quite agree that is a sacrifice nobody should even consider debatable. But not everyone is the average mumsnetter, tightening their belts and doing fucking yoga, balancing the 'mental strain' of homeschooling an nt child with the housework.

My friends dc has complex needs. The last time we had to change his usual time with our safe pony due to a veterinary emergency, it resulted in a meltdown lasting days, injuries to the whole family and a destroyed house. Simply because we knew he couldn't safely cope with another horse being treated by a vet across the yard because it isn't in the routine. And that's a family that is otherwise very equipped to cope. It isn't just fun or routine like a dc with a cancelled riding lesson, it's essentially therapy. We're currently trying to figure out an alternative strategy to allow him to continue in a limited way.

Now imagine that's a dc with parents already at breaking point, living on the breadline and shut away in a tiny house with other dc that's just had all support withdrawn. How long do we realistically think they're going to cope? If it gets to the point we're having to choose between Mr & Mrs 80yr old dying from corona virus and Mrs 40yr old carer taking her life and that of her child with sn, then awful as it is, I'd prioritise the latter in a heartbeat. And that's not melodramatic, it's happened before.

I'm aware not all pensioners are wealthy. But comparatively speaking, they are better off than younger generations. Whether you compare the retired warehouse worker to the working age one that's just been laid off, or we compare the retired ceo to the ceo that will soon be filing for bankruptcy.

We're privileged and financially secure. I think it's absolutely right that people like us should have to pay higher taxes, and in the meantime do as much as possible to help those less fortunate. And in the current situation it's not acceptable to continue the grey vote status quo of prioritising pensioner wealth and income at the expense of the poorest and disabled, and certainly not if we're now going to increase the numbers in poverty or struggling to cope with disability, and reduce their quality of life even further.

No, it's not ridiculous to be concerned about that and a lot of people actually do understand that for some it's a prison, a nightmare and downright dangerous. Charities are keyworkers and working extremely hard to do what they can, teachers are making every attempt to check in on vulnerable children not attending school (here at least), my cousin works for a DV charity and she is working 18 hour days, and there is huge support in the area to help facilitate the charities to do all that they can. This is why when people were shouting about closing the school's weeks ago, shutting everything down, the government was resistant in part. But if it was people in their teens, twenties, thirties disproportionately affected, it's naieve to think that people wouldn't feel differently, and that the sacrifice is worry it. A lot of people will need a lot of support after this, it's unchartered territory globally for everyone in today's modern world as life is different to 100+ years ago when we last went through this. Letting it go unchecked would also have catastrophic consequences, and you kind of need a workforce to keep the economy going. Keeping people in business and work is also much better for the economy in the long-term, and for families who without it wouldn't be able to feed their children. It's a very, very complex issue, and every option sucks, but we don't have a choice. One has to be taken.

I just see very little concern for the effects on some vulnerable people of lockdown

There is concern but what do you expect to happen? More kids will be affected if one of their parents die, it could mean poverty and a very frustrated other parent.

Kids who live in abusive households will be worse off now, but they also weren't doing fine before. I have a family member who treats her children appalingly, feeds them shit or some days no hot dinner at all and I have seen her hit one of them. Nobody is interested in protecting these children. I was concerned for them anyway, this crisis doesn't change their home life at all. It was abusive and will continu to be till they leave home.

Going by where I live, children aren’t being ‘locked up’ it’s like summer. All out on bikes and scooters. No regard for anyone’s health. Some sacrifice they are making!

How many other people with serious illnesses will die now and in future for conditions undiagnosed or untreated for weeks or months. Hundreds of people a week get diagnosed with cancer and the faster you get treatment, the better outcome. No one is getting diagnosed because no one can get to gp or consultant.

Which is why we need lockdown. The harder we do it the quicker we can get back to a stage when people with other conditions are being treated.

These decisions won’t have been made easily. And you are right about vulnerable adults and children faring badly from this but the alternative is worse. Much worse.