Time to close the schools

[PaddyF0dder]

I can’t believe I’m saying this. I’m a dad to 3 very young boys. Our eldest is nearly 6 and is on the spectrum. Our twins are nearly 3. They’re hard work when they’re stuck in the house. I also work as a doctor in the NHS. Closing the schools would be a nightmare for us.

I think we need to do it, and do it early.

Watching how this virus is spreading, seeing how harmful it’s been in other countries, reading the stats on transmission, burned on healthcare etc... closing schools and nurseries really seems to be the most logical step.

The UK is at a turning point. We’re entering the stage of sustained transmission. We may already be too late. But we might still have time to enact draconian measures early as opposed to late. Closing school and nurseries. Limiting travel around the country. It seems inevitable that these things will happen, but doing it early might save the lives of the sick and vulnerable.

I honestly don’t know how my family will cope with it. We have absolutely no family support re childcare. We both work hard jobs in the NHS. I wish there was a better option. But the more I look at the facts of this outbreak, the more obvious it gets.

We need to reduce viral transmission. There are many ways, and all must be done. One such way is to close schools and nurseries. We need to do it now.

I am a pregnant (20 week), full time teacher with a 5 year old.

I am currently off ill from work due to the children giving me tonsillitis during the week.

I am completely confused over what the right thing to do it regarding closing the schools. Would it really help? They would all congregate at one person's house for childcare reasons and therefore end up with it anyway.

A small majority of our pupils have families who work for the NHS, some work for local businesses or run their own and a majority are unemployed. Do we pick and choose whose children we look after?

Almost 70% of my class go abroad during the Easter holidays and they all fully intend on going, I can never afford this luxury so it's not a problem for us.

Selfishly, if things do get much worse will I be expected to carry on working as we don't yet understand the full impact of CV on mothers and unborn babies?

Even if the Government gave parents the option of taking their DC out of school without being fined to extend the Easter holidays that would reduce transmission. If half the children stayed away it would be easier to maintain hygiene measures with the others and would reduce the number of children travelling.

We are in the position where we could manage the DC being off as they are secondary school age. I suspect the Government was hoping to hang on until the Easter holidays but may need to bring them forward.

I also think we need to be realistic that Covid 19 is here to stay and that these measures are only going to slow transmission to a manageable level not eliminate the risk.

I’m a teacher. Kids are pretty disgusting even secondary school. The virus is transmitted through water droplets?

This is a list of what they do. The virus will spread like wildfire, to be then carried out of the school.
They
Spit
Don’t wash hands
Sneeze/ cough without covering their mouths.
Spit out or share chewing gum
Bite nails
Chew communal pencils, pens, rulers other equipment
Kiss, cuddle, share phones that have other germs on
Shove their hands in each other’s mouth. Last week a girl was trying to take a photo of her friends aching tooth by shoving her phone in her mouth.
Pick their noses
Leave snotty tissues around,
Wipe bogies on things.

All of this will cause a rapid spread and then transmit the germs elsewhere, even though the child may not have symptoms.

Children and teachers are superspreaders

And l think Boris is aware that schools should be closing. But he is too scared to act on it, due to a potential outcry.

@Slazengerbag "people are seeing teachers as childcare"

How many people are able to work because their kids are at school? I see teachers as professionals, but the time my DC's are in school is regular reliable child-free time during which I go to work.

If schools close, many people won't be able to work because they have no one to look after their child when they are there. That is reality. I am not saying that schools shouldn't close if that's what's needed to help manage this situation, if that's what needs to happen then so be it. But it's disingenuous to be annoyed with people who are worried because the time their kids are at school allied then them to go out and earn an income.

They would all congregate at one person's house for childcare reasons and therefore end up with it anyway.

They wouldn’t ‘all’ congregate though, it will be dribs and drabs of people in small groups.

The closing of schools will reduce the spread of transmission.

I think it will happen now actually. Probably a week or two before Easter.

Another one here who works in a school. We don't have a plan, and official advice has been minimal. I think the current idea to try and push on until Easter is going to be too little too late.

I saw a graph on twitter yesterday that basically showed how slowing the rate of transmission lengthens the overall curve of the prevalence of cases, but reduces the peak to within a level the health service can manage. So in all likelihood we will be dealing with the effects of this for months rather than weeks but without overwhelming the NHS. How we do this I'm not sure, but I think closing the schools now probably is not the answer. Keeping them closed after Easter might be viable, and that takes us right into exam season. We are going to have to start thinking differently about how a lot of things happen. If I could work out how to post the graph I would.

@Langbannedforsafeguardingkids

I work as a consultant psychiatrist in CAMHS. So I’m very grateful for not being on the frontlines of this. Although it’s entirely possible that staff me like me are redeployed as things worsen.

But nonetheless my clinic, like any other clinical setting, forms a stage for viral transmission.

From this week I’m taking the initiative of seeing all possible patients using videocalls. Only patients they need physical examination are getting in-person appointments. However I can imagine my managers will oppose, so I’ll be facing a battle. But I think it’s an entirely defensible step. I’m not concerned about my personal health, or my own kids. My concerns are about the epidemiological reality. Basically, humans need to stay away from eachother as much as possible.

I’ve been told nothing about how to work flexibly, or about childcare arrangements. I’ve also had no guidance on avoiding contact with people. We have received precisely zero protective equipment. We don’t even have alcohol gel for patients and relatives.

@Rosehip10

I am and I do. But if you want to not believe me then on you go. That’s an attack ad hominem, which is what people fall back on when they can’t argue the argument. Good luck with that.

Why put this on Mumsnet though as a doctor?
You'll just get loads of random opinions.
Look into and discuss with Public Health.
What specialty are you in?

PrincessButtockUp
The aim will be to push the peak into the summer so that we don't have to contend with winter flu and covid 19 at the same time to give the NHS a bit of breathing space.

I also think we need to be realistic that Covid 19 is here to stay and that these measures are only going to slow transmission to a manageable level not eliminate the risk.

Agreed. My best case scenario is that this becomes like something in between flu and mengingitis in terms of seriousness - we'll eventually have vaccines, we know it can be very serious, we take it seriously, vaccinate the vulnerable and our doctors and nurses are adequately prepared. That alongside some herd immunity and COVID will be another public health threat we can deal with.

The problem now is that the NHS is relatively unprepared and the population has no immunity at all (this hasn't been seen before - we know what happened in China though, even if not acting on it). We NEED to delay transmission and the government is doing bugger all as far as I can tell. They're not even telling people coming back from Italy to isolate unless they have symptoms.

In my worst moments I think they want to kill off all the vulnerable and this is a deliberate strategy (but, even if people are blind now, I don't think they'll stay that way and people will remember).

PrincessButtockUp - closing the schools is one of the main things that delayed the peak.

Is there a “scrap hs2 and spend the money on Coronavirus” petition?
Schools can only close if enough money is thrown at the issues that will arise if they are.

Businesses could look at increasing facilities for home working - may involve significant outlay, but would enable the show to go on. For example, call centre work can be done at home with a laptop and the right software.

I bet in the majority of businesses there is no facility for home working. Yes, perhaps those that can, should. But that won't help with closing schools because you can't work effectively with the kids around.

Is there a “scrap hs2 and spend the money on Coronavirus” petition?

I'd sign that one!

We've had very little guidance so far. Fit testing fir masks mainly though think a plan is evolving.
In my opinion main issues will be in patient infection control when the elderly population have it in addition to their other medical issues and staff sickness and shortages during ward outbreaks.

People get extremely panicked and paranoid by the media hype.

You make a very sensible point OP. A series of measures in conjunction with closure of schools etc would be needed, and probably will be enacted eventually. The difficulty with the whole thing is at what point to implement draconian measures so that the majority will support it. They could not be enforced indefinitely, so it’s a difficult judgment call as to when will be most effective. People will need to understand the seriousness of the situation before they buy into it and as some posts on here demonstrate, the continuing level of ignorance about the threat this poses is deeply worrying. Coronavirus is not like anything we’ve experienced before.

People who say they couldn’t do it need to wake up. The reality is, it is more than likely at the moment that they are going to have to do it - the only question is, when is the best window of opportunity to achieve maximum benefit?

The one crumb of comfort I see is that it is happening a little later in the UK than in other countries, giving us more time to prepare and learn the lessons from others’ experience.

I haven't read the full thread, because well, it's 13 pages long, but at the risk of saying what's been said multiple times already, I don't see how shutting the schools would help. It's not like children can be steralised and packed away into boxes for a few months until the virus has blown over! If they're not at school, they'll be with childminders, going to the library, going to softplay, accompanying parents on supermarket trips, being foisted on grandparents (the vulnerable elderly!), playing with friends etc. If they're at school at least strict handwashing can be supervised, with whole-school assemblies on 'hygiene' to educate them on the importance.

That’s an attack ad hominem try not to sound like a tosser. I totally agree schools should close but you don’t have to try and sound clever on MN. On the whole there will be thousands of better educated more intelligent reading and you make yourself look daft trying to pull rank.

@PaddyF0dder

Ok, I'm a Professor of Epidemiology. See, anyone can say they are anything on-line? And who knows the truth.

If you have genuine professional concerns about the PHE led response then I'm sure you are raising these appropriately? Or are you just posting on a parenting forum for clicks and more inappropriate panic generation and driving more perverse behaviour?

Can you stop bleating about being "attacked" by people on here too - this isn't "Dr in the house" where all us poor deluded women bow down and hang on to every word of the big male consultant. Don't want people to have opinions on what you post then don't post.

FurrySlipperBoots the risk won't be zero, but it will be reduced.