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Conflict in the Middle East

Israel calling Francesca Albanese a witch!?

289 replies

Everexpanding · 29/10/2025 16:17

I understand anti semite was losing its power to silence but now Israel is calling Francesca Albanese a witch??? At a meeting of the UN?
Has the Israeli government lost it’s mind

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Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 10:56

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 10:48

This is many things, but logical is not one of them.

You seem to be operating from the position that only one side can possibly have anything to hide. Clearly this is a failure of logic.

It is Israel's fault that they have chosen not to allow outside journalists into Gaza. They and they alone are responsible for that decision.

It does not follow from this that if Israel changed their minds, Hamas would then have a complete operational change and allow people to speak freely and report things they don't want spreading to the outside. But the only way your argument could make sense is if this obviously false premise were accepted to be correct.

If your view is that Hamas would have a magical change of approach to people saying things they don't like, you will need to explain why.

I'm going to try this one more time. No one knows how Hamas will react if the free press were allowed into Gaza. You are making assumptions based on nothing more than a visceral, not logical, decision. Now if the free press were allowed in and Hamas blocked them, that means they're hiding something but that is not something we will ever know until Israel stops blocking the free press from trying to report.

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 11:01

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 10:56

I'm going to try this one more time. No one knows how Hamas will react if the free press were allowed into Gaza. You are making assumptions based on nothing more than a visceral, not logical, decision. Now if the free press were allowed in and Hamas blocked them, that means they're hiding something but that is not something we will ever know until Israel stops blocking the free press from trying to report.

Upthread you said all these figures could be verified if Israel let international journos in. Now there's no way of knowing what would happen.

Which is it? You can only pick one. If you want to pretend it's completely up in the air what Hamas would do, that means you need to give exactly the same amount of credence to all possibilities, rather than elevating one above others.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 11:03

CircleSquared · 08/11/2025 10:48

I don’t even know where to go with this.

if I argued that there’s a unicorn on the moon and here are some satellite images to prove it, and then you explained exactly how the satellite images had been manipulated and faked, wouldn’t it be bizarre for me to respond that your claims are unverified and therefore there must indeed be a unicorn? Because at the very least it would mean both claims are unverified and there’s no reason to believe any of it.

Even if one believes that Big Space are hiding something from us, why choose to accept it’s specifically a unicorn even after it’s been pointed out that it’s based on incorrect evidence?

I am not trying to convince you of the civilian casualty rate. I am pointing out that there is no reason to believe the 83%. The Guardian article itself states the 17% is only named Hamas combatants from the database.

I am not trying to convince you to support Israel. I am pointing out statistical manipulation and misinformation.

Unicorns?? No idea where to go with that. I categorically said, no one knows what the exact figures are. 83% is a figure which may or may not be true. I have no idea and I'm not sure if we will ever know. As far as your unicorn thing, are you trying to imply the images of the destruction in Gaza are fake?

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 11:10

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 11:01

Upthread you said all these figures could be verified if Israel let international journos in. Now there's no way of knowing what would happen.

Which is it? You can only pick one. If you want to pretend it's completely up in the air what Hamas would do, that means you need to give exactly the same amount of credence to all possibilities, rather than elevating one above others.

I, that is me, have no idea what will happen if international journalists go into Gaza. There is a possibility that Hamas will block access to areas and try to censor what is reported. Anything is possible but I am not going to make that assumption until it happens. Point is, what we know now, not what we think, is it is Israel who are the ones blocking international journalists from reporting from Gaza. You may think Hamas will do the same but thinking is not the same as knowing.

CircleSquared · 08/11/2025 11:17

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 11:03

Unicorns?? No idea where to go with that. I categorically said, no one knows what the exact figures are. 83% is a figure which may or may not be true. I have no idea and I'm not sure if we will ever know. As far as your unicorn thing, are you trying to imply the images of the destruction in Gaza are fake?

It’s an analogy. I chose unicorns thinking it couldn’t be twisted to say it’s an additional commentary on Israel/Gaza but here we are.

I am not at all stating the images coming out of Gaza are fake.

My only point is that the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. In this case, claiming the 83%.

You have openly acknowledged you’ve no idea if it’s true and don’t seem to disagree that the statistics are manipulated. Yet if you had to choose one way or the other you’d assume it’s true.

I hope you’re never on a jury!

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 11:18

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 11:10

I, that is me, have no idea what will happen if international journalists go into Gaza. There is a possibility that Hamas will block access to areas and try to censor what is reported. Anything is possible but I am not going to make that assumption until it happens. Point is, what we know now, not what we think, is it is Israel who are the ones blocking international journalists from reporting from Gaza. You may think Hamas will do the same but thinking is not the same as knowing.

Right, so with that in mind you don't actually elevate the possibility that Hamas will allow free enough access for independent death toll verification above any other?

In that case, you'll want to make sure you don't list it solo without caveating, as you did in the post I first replied to. Obviously you wouldn't want to be seen as giving more precedence to one supposedly possible outcome than any other. Especially when that outcome would require a significant behavioural change from things we do in fact know very well about Hamas.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 11:31

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 11:18

Right, so with that in mind you don't actually elevate the possibility that Hamas will allow free enough access for independent death toll verification above any other?

In that case, you'll want to make sure you don't list it solo without caveating, as you did in the post I first replied to. Obviously you wouldn't want to be seen as giving more precedence to one supposedly possible outcome than any other. Especially when that outcome would require a significant behavioural change from things we do in fact know very well about Hamas.

The only people who would block access to independent verification are the ones who have something to hide. As it is at the moment, we only "know" that Israel are doing that. If Hamas were to do the same thing we would "know" that they had something to hide. That in itself is a form of verification as we would "know" they are lying. Right now you are pointlessly talking about what ifs and making a massive assumption that Hamas would block the journalists.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 11:37

CircleSquared · 08/11/2025 11:17

It’s an analogy. I chose unicorns thinking it couldn’t be twisted to say it’s an additional commentary on Israel/Gaza but here we are.

I am not at all stating the images coming out of Gaza are fake.

My only point is that the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. In this case, claiming the 83%.

You have openly acknowledged you’ve no idea if it’s true and don’t seem to disagree that the statistics are manipulated. Yet if you had to choose one way or the other you’d assume it’s true.

I hope you’re never on a jury!

If you look at my first point on this thread I said the whole article is unverified. I have also said I don't take any figures coming out of Gaza from anyone as fact as both sides have a motive to lie so no, without actual verification, the figures are nothing more than a possibility. What I specifically said was if I had to bet, I stress had to, not declare as proof, then looking at the devastation in Gaza and all the reports from international doctors who are the closest we're going to get to verification, I would bet on them being true.

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 11:55

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 11:31

The only people who would block access to independent verification are the ones who have something to hide. As it is at the moment, we only "know" that Israel are doing that. If Hamas were to do the same thing we would "know" that they had something to hide. That in itself is a form of verification as we would "know" they are lying. Right now you are pointlessly talking about what ifs and making a massive assumption that Hamas would block the journalists.

If you want to say you think there's no possible way to know what Hamas would do to foreign independent journalists if allowed in, no doubt we all accept that this is your sincerely held belief. Something doesn't have to be non-deluded to not be in good faith, after all. But with that in mind, why did you previously elevate one of the apparently equal possibilities above the others? If you intend to continue in this conversation, this is something you're going to have to address.

I actually have no problem with people saying they want to focus only on what is currently happening, and therefore as things stand they'll criticise just Israel for not allowing independent journos in. That is a reasonable position, if you stick to it. Means not engaging in speculation, or giving more prominence to one hypothetical than others.

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 12:00

Guys there is no point arguing with someone who throws doubt on the suggestion that Hamas has something to hide and who will bluntly say that Israel is worse than Hamas.

Everything beyond these two beliefs is just noise.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 12:07

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 11:55

If you want to say you think there's no possible way to know what Hamas would do to foreign independent journalists if allowed in, no doubt we all accept that this is your sincerely held belief. Something doesn't have to be non-deluded to not be in good faith, after all. But with that in mind, why did you previously elevate one of the apparently equal possibilities above the others? If you intend to continue in this conversation, this is something you're going to have to address.

I actually have no problem with people saying they want to focus only on what is currently happening, and therefore as things stand they'll criticise just Israel for not allowing independent journos in. That is a reasonable position, if you stick to it. Means not engaging in speculation, or giving more prominence to one hypothetical than others.

The reason I would say that if I have to bet, I would bet it is true is precisely because Israel won't allow international journalists in. They are demonstrating that they have something to hide.

Have you not considered that is not just me who would like to see international journalists in but the journalists themselves who are chomping at the bit to get in.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 12:09

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 12:00

Guys there is no point arguing with someone who throws doubt on the suggestion that Hamas has something to hide and who will bluntly say that Israel is worse than Hamas.

Everything beyond these two beliefs is just noise.

I get you don't want to debate but that smacks as a personal attack to me. I don't think MNHQ approves of that.

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 12:23

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 12:09

I get you don't want to debate but that smacks as a personal attack to me. I don't think MNHQ approves of that.

Why does it feel like a personal attack when I repeat back what you have said about Hamas and Israel?

Me suggesting to others that debating with someone with those views is pointless is obviously me expressing my opinion which I believe is still allowed on MN.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 12:28

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 12:23

Why does it feel like a personal attack when I repeat back what you have said about Hamas and Israel?

Me suggesting to others that debating with someone with those views is pointless is obviously me expressing my opinion which I believe is still allowed on MN.

"Everything beyond these two beliefs is just noise." is a personal attack! At no point have I expressed any derogatory remarks about your debating skills.

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 12:40

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 12:28

"Everything beyond these two beliefs is just noise." is a personal attack! At no point have I expressed any derogatory remarks about your debating skills.

You're sensitive to any hint of criticism for someone who happily described a whole country as being worse than a proscribed terrorist organisation.

And then admitted you said it on purpose (in case anyone thought you said it accidentally).

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 12:52

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 12:40

You're sensitive to any hint of criticism for someone who happily described a whole country as being worse than a proscribed terrorist organisation.

And then admitted you said it on purpose (in case anyone thought you said it accidentally).

I don't think you understood what I meant by I said it on purpose. On another note though, how is it so galling to you for me to make such a statement, even though you did misunderstand the point, when so many Israeli politicians have made actual statements about there being no innocent Palestinians and worse.

Actually I'm not sensitive to criticism. I have always taught my daughters that when someone sinks to personal insults in a debate, to take it as a victory. You stated that you weren't going to interact with me anymore and then jumped in on a debate that you weren't involved in with nothing more than a personal attack.

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 13:00

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 12:52

I don't think you understood what I meant by I said it on purpose. On another note though, how is it so galling to you for me to make such a statement, even though you did misunderstand the point, when so many Israeli politicians have made actual statements about there being no innocent Palestinians and worse.

Actually I'm not sensitive to criticism. I have always taught my daughters that when someone sinks to personal insults in a debate, to take it as a victory. You stated that you weren't going to interact with me anymore and then jumped in on a debate that you weren't involved in with nothing more than a personal attack.

It's jarring when anyone makes negative statements insulting whole groups of people whether Palestinians or Israelis. Just because some Israeli politicians have made horrible statements, I don't think that's a valid reason to copy them.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 13:13

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 13:00

It's jarring when anyone makes negative statements insulting whole groups of people whether Palestinians or Israelis. Just because some Israeli politicians have made horrible statements, I don't think that's a valid reason to copy them.

As I said, you didn't understand the nuance in the way I said it. Perhaps I should have been more blunt and said 72% of Israelis are worse because they were in favour of blocking all aid into Gaza in order to starve all the Palestinians including babies. Would that have been more accurate and less jarring. I'll remind you, that isn't a figure I just invented, that was from an official poll in Israel.

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 14:01

I understand you're trying to be inflammatory at the same time as crying "personal attack" so I'll take my own advice now and stop engaging.

Stripes56 · 08/11/2025 15:45

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 10:56

I'm going to try this one more time. No one knows how Hamas will react if the free press were allowed into Gaza. You are making assumptions based on nothing more than a visceral, not logical, decision. Now if the free press were allowed in and Hamas blocked them, that means they're hiding something but that is not something we will ever know until Israel stops blocking the free press from trying to report.

Israel still has control over 47% of Gaza? Where there is no Hamas. Could they not let independent journalists in the Israeli occupied Gaza?

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 16:03

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 12:07

The reason I would say that if I have to bet, I would bet it is true is precisely because Israel won't allow international journalists in. They are demonstrating that they have something to hide.

Have you not considered that is not just me who would like to see international journalists in but the journalists themselves who are chomping at the bit to get in.

The first paragraph is inconsistent with your statement that you don't think there's any way to tell, though. If there's no way to tell then the only answer is that you couldn't possibly say. Again, you have to pick one and go with it. Whereas you do not have to bet. You're not doing a very good job of sticking to your claims.

The second is immaterial. Nobody thinks there aren't international journos who want to go.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 16:25

I have no idea what you are trying to say other than you think you can obfuscate a simple point. At this moment in time, and since the beginning of this conflict, Israel will not allow any independent journalists in. As I have said again and again, it must either be because they don't want the world to see what is going on in Gaza, they are worried that IDF soldiers won't be able to distinguish between international and Palestinian journalists so are liable to cause an international incident by shooting an international journalist or it is a combination of the two. We know these things because there is no other explanation unless you think you have one. As far as how Hamas would react in the event that journalists were allowed into Gaza, I would not choose to speculate or make assumptions as we will never know until they are allowed in. Whatever Israel is hiding must be significant since they wouldn't even let international journalists take a photo out of a plane window.

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 16:50

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 16:25

I have no idea what you are trying to say other than you think you can obfuscate a simple point. At this moment in time, and since the beginning of this conflict, Israel will not allow any independent journalists in. As I have said again and again, it must either be because they don't want the world to see what is going on in Gaza, they are worried that IDF soldiers won't be able to distinguish between international and Palestinian journalists so are liable to cause an international incident by shooting an international journalist or it is a combination of the two. We know these things because there is no other explanation unless you think you have one. As far as how Hamas would react in the event that journalists were allowed into Gaza, I would not choose to speculate or make assumptions as we will never know until they are allowed in. Whatever Israel is hiding must be significant since they wouldn't even let international journalists take a photo out of a plane window.

There's no obfuscation. You've made two contradictory points, and continue to do so. Saying that you'd bet on Hamas being correct if you had to (you don't) is literally speculation and making an assumption.

If it's ok for you to speculate about numbers based on nothing more than faith, you aren't in any position to tell people who have drawn a different conclusion to you, but based their on the known behaviour of Hamas that they're making assumptions based on lack of logic because we simply cannot say. It's one or the other.

You also need to be clear that reiterating how Israel have something to hide, which they demonstrably do, does not even address the point that Hamas blatantly do as well. Much less refute it. There is no rule that one side in a conflict must be happy to allow full journalistic access. You don't make the case that Hamas wouldn't try and hide anything by continuing to point out that the Israelis are preventing them from being in that position in the first place, we all know that.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 17:12

Okay. One more time. You have obviously accepted Israel is hiding something. "Israel have something to hide, which they demonstrably do". That is good. On top of that, "There is no rule that one side in a conflict must be happy to allow full journalistic access". Name me one war where journalists have been denied access by either side. Finally you are talking about faith but your faith is that Hamas will lie. I have no idea if they will but guess what, there is one way to find out!

SharonEllis · 08/11/2025 17:16

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 17:12

Okay. One more time. You have obviously accepted Israel is hiding something. "Israel have something to hide, which they demonstrably do". That is good. On top of that, "There is no rule that one side in a conflict must be happy to allow full journalistic access". Name me one war where journalists have been denied access by either side. Finally you are talking about faith but your faith is that Hamas will lie. I have no idea if they will but guess what, there is one way to find out!

Sorry what? Journalists are nearly always restricted in war zones.