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Conflict in the Middle East

Israel calling Francesca Albanese a witch!?

289 replies

Everexpanding · 29/10/2025 16:17

I understand anti semite was losing its power to silence but now Israel is calling Francesca Albanese a witch??? At a meeting of the UN?
Has the Israeli government lost it’s mind

OP posts:
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Iamfree · 08/11/2025 07:59

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HellsBalls · 08/11/2025 08:08

As soon as someone mentions ‘carpet bombing’ you know they are a Hamas mouthpiece.
The IDF have only ever done precision strikes in Gaza, or anywhere else for that matter. Obviously that doesn’t mean no civilians were ever casualties, nor that mistakes were not made.
No one had ever been able to substantiate the carpet bombing accusation.
Carpet bombing refugee camps is an even bigger lie, as perfectly nice, well developed suburbs retained the names refugee camps.
All part of the deceit.
I put it alongside the genocide and famine lies.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 08:13

SharonEllis · 08/11/2025 07:36

Why would you ignore a platform for perfectly good journalism? Its like saying I don't use newspapers. But so you don't miss out, here is the text. It is heavily referenced and this means you lose the links ut its the whole text.

Few aspects of the Gaza war have been more weaponized than fatality statistics. The latest claim, published yesterday in 972 Magazine and The Guardian is that 83% of fatalities in Gaza are civilians. On the surface, it looks like hard data, the kind that might prove Israel guilty of indiscriminate killing or even genocide. But it is nothing more than a statistical sleight of hand, a number manufactured on flawed assumptions, selective counting, and deliberate omissions. This is not sloppy analysis or an innocent mistake; it is a deliberate manipulation of numbers designed to manufacture a false charge of Israeli criminality.
At present, we have just two main data points on casualties, neither of which is verifiable.
Experts note that the very idea of tabulating fatalities in real time during an active war is preposterous. Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist group claims 62,000
people have died in Gaza, without disclosing combatants killed. Israel reports at least 22,000 combatants killed: 20,000
widely cited and another 2,100
since the March 2025 ceasefire expired. Taken at face value, these numbers yield a civilian-to-combatant ratio of under 2:1. That figure is not only within the norms of modern urban warfare, it is far lower than the 3:1 to 5:1 ratios reported for U.S. and allied campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan. For anyone pushing the “genocide” narrative, the lower Gaza numbers collapse the claim.
That is why anti-Israel activists and their media allies twist the figures. First, they inflated Gaza’s toll beyond even Hamas’s claims. Now, they have shifted to undermining Israel’s count of combatants killed. The objective is always the same: to manufacture numbers that can be wielded as “evidence” of Israeli criminality. The target is not simply to reach a 5:1 ratio, but to stretch both ends until they can claim a 9:1 ratio
— closer to the threshold needed to brand the war as “genocide.”
The centerpiece of the new claim rests on a single data point: according to a “classified database” (no disclosure of how this was obtained) writer yuval Abraham of 972 Magazine
, along with Emma Graham-Harrison of The Guardian, assert that, as of May 2025, the IDF had killed only 8,900 combatants in Gaza since 10/7, far below the 20,000 it has reported. From this, Abraham conjures the statistic that “83% of the dead are civilians.” The calculation is crude: take Hamas’s then-claim of 53,000 total deaths (a number that itself includes natural deaths
and fatalities caused by Hamas), subtract 8,900, and label the rest civilians.
The IDF rejected the story, stating that “the figures presented in the article are incorrect and do not reflect the data available in the IDF’s systems.” After publication, it reiterated
its position, calling the claims “not only false but also a reflection of a fundamental lack of military understanding.”
The “8,900” figure is not evidence, it’s a statistical distortion. Even Abraham admits it counts only combatants killed who were identified by name. Anyone not named simply disappears from the tally: fighters buried in tunnels, struck in airstrikes where bodies were never recovered, or killed in close combat where Israel had no way to collect bodies or IDs. By this logic, unless the IDF could produce a name tag for every militant killed, those deaths are rebranded as “civilians.” The result is a cooked statistic designed to deflate combatant totals and inflate civilian percentages.
This is an absurd standard. No war has ever required soldiers to supply the names of enemy dead for their deaths to count as combatant fatalities. If the same criteria were applied to the
Battle of Mosul, virtually every ISIS fighter killed would be reclassified as a “civilian.” The fact that Israel has been able to identify 8,900 combatants by name is remarkable, not damning. And once you examine what this figure leaves out, the entire 83% claim collapses:
Ground combat action: Israel’s campaign has included months of brutal close-quarters fighting in Khan Younes, Rafah, Zeitoun, Jabalia, Shejaiya
and elsewhere. These battles cost the IDF more than 3000 casualties, including 450 dead. It is thus impossible to argue that the IDF killed only a small number of combatants on the ground while suffering thousands of its own casualties. It is equally nonsensical to expect Israel to have collected and identified every body in the chaos of real time urban fighting, tunnel warfare, and collapsed buildings.
Drone & airstrike operations: Hundreds of real-time IDF operations have targeted rocket-launch teams, RPG squads, armed cells, Hamas operatives posing as aid workers, etc. These engagements are unlikely to produce names, and many bodies are inaccessible. Yet under the +972 formula, every one of these militants vanishes from the record and is reclassified statistically as a “civilian.” Some suggest, without any evidence, that most IDF airstrikes hit named militants at known locations, but no one has data on how many were killed that way versus in the hundreds of other strikes that took place in active combat operations.
New recruits: During the war, Hamas is estimated to have recruited 15,000 new fighters, specifically to replace those killed. Reuters
noted that “many recruits are young and untrained.” These individuals are unlikely to appear in Israel’s databases and would not be “named” after death. Under the +972 methodology, they are erased from the combatant tally.
Non-Hamas & PIJ combatants killed: Abraham admits that the 8,900 figure excludes operatives from groups outside Hamas and PIJ. Yet factions like the Nasser Salah al-Din Brigades, Mujahadeen Brigades (responsible for the Bibas baby kidnapping), the PFLP, and others have been active. The omission alone guarantees the “83% civilian” claim is false. Abraham also excludes Hamas political leaders, dismissing them as illegitimate targets. But under international law, leaders of designated terrorist organizations are legal targets. Figures such as
Ismail Barhoum Ismail Barhoum
, head of the Hamas government, listed as a terrorist by both the US and UK
, and later killed by the IDF, clearly fall into this category (see U.S. Law of War Manual
5.7.3). No one would call an ISIS or Al-Qaeda political leader a “civilian,” yet Hamas apologists are happy to do so for Hamas.
Ignores U.S. intelligence: Abraham brushes aside U.S. intelligence assessments that directly undermine his narrative. In January 2025, American officials estimated Hamas had lost roughly 10,000-15,000 fighters, almost the same number it had recruited during the war. +972 ignores this, cherry-picking from the very
Reuters report it cites while omitting the sections that corroborate Israel’s figures. And that U.S. estimate covered Hamas alone. If we add a proportionate share of PIJ fighters (around 12,700 at the war’s start), that would mean another 4,000–5,000 killed, aligning with the IDF’s claim of 20,000 combatants.
Hamas admitted 6,000 killed in Feb 2024: In February 2024 a Hamas official in Qatar told
Reuters that 6,000 of its fighters had been killed. Abraham’s claim that only 2,900 more were killed in the 18 months of fierce combat that followed defies logic.
U.S. intelligence in early 2024 estimated that Israel had killed 20%-30% of Hamas’ force. Even at the low end, that was about 7,000 Hamas fighters, plus another 2,500 PIJ fighters if we assume similar proportional losses. In other words, by early 2024 the number of combatants killed was already likely above 10,000, long before the battles of Khan Younes, Rafah, and Jabalia.
Israel's combatant lists are not perfect: The +972 article states that the IDF had names for 34,973 Hamas and 12,702 PIJ operatives. These rosters, drawn from seized Hamas/PIJ documents and other intelligence sources, are substantial but cannot be considered comprehensive. Crucially, having a list of named operatives does not therefore mean the IDF could identify every combatant killed, for all the reasons noted above. It only explains how the military was able to identify 8,900 operatives killed by name in the first place.
+972 and The Guardian use the cooked 8,900 figure to compare Gaza to other wars, but no other conflict has ever demanded named verification of every enemy dead. By that standard, most if not all U.S. and allied kills in Mosul or Fallujah
would have been classified as “civilians.” The comparison is rigged from the start.
The “83% civilian” claim is not analysis but propaganda. It takes a deliberately narrow slice of data — named combatants only — and pretends it represents the whole to make sweeping claims about Israeli military conduct. It erases thousands of fighters killed in ground battles, airstrikes, drone operations, and tunnel warfare. It ignores Hamas’s own admissions, smaller factions, new recruits, and multiple U.S. intelligence assessments. It applies a standard of proof never used in any other modern war, while at the same time accepting Hamas’s casualty figures at face value, even though Hamas has repeatedly inflated civilian death counts in previous conflicts.The truth is that Israel’s casualty ratios, even by
Hamas’s manipulated figure, fall within or below the norms of modern urban combat. That fact enrages those who devote their careers to
demonizing Israel. The “83% civilian” headline is not journalism. It is propaganda, crafted to delegitimize Israel’s right to self-defense by inverting the reality of 10/7 and
recasting the victim as the perpetrator.

Of course all these figures could have been verified if international journalists were allowed to report from Gaza but as we know, Israel does not allow any international journalists into Gaza. Anyone with half a brain knows why but Israel’s spurious claim is because it cannot guarantee their safety. Cannot guarantee their safety from whom? Hamas? It’s not Israels job to protect them from Hamas. That is up to the journalists to decide. Of course it might be to protect them from the IDF. When considering the number of Palestinian journalists who have been ‘killed’ by the IDF it seems pretty evident there is a deliberate policy for the journalists to be targeted and Israel may be worried that they would find it difficult to distinguish between international journalists and Palestinian ones. Another war crime!

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 08:23

HellsBalls · 08/11/2025 08:08

As soon as someone mentions ‘carpet bombing’ you know they are a Hamas mouthpiece.
The IDF have only ever done precision strikes in Gaza, or anywhere else for that matter. Obviously that doesn’t mean no civilians were ever casualties, nor that mistakes were not made.
No one had ever been able to substantiate the carpet bombing accusation.
Carpet bombing refugee camps is an even bigger lie, as perfectly nice, well developed suburbs retained the names refugee camps.
All part of the deceit.
I put it alongside the genocide and famine lies.

In the first six months Israel had dropped over 70,000 tons of bombs, more than the total dropped on the infamous Dresden 'carpet' bombing. Almost 50% of those bombs were the 750 pound M117, an unguided "dumb" bomb. Call it what you want but I personally don't see a difference.

SharonEllis · 08/11/2025 08:23

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 08:13

Of course all these figures could have been verified if international journalists were allowed to report from Gaza but as we know, Israel does not allow any international journalists into Gaza. Anyone with half a brain knows why but Israel’s spurious claim is because it cannot guarantee their safety. Cannot guarantee their safety from whom? Hamas? It’s not Israels job to protect them from Hamas. That is up to the journalists to decide. Of course it might be to protect them from the IDF. When considering the number of Palestinian journalists who have been ‘killed’ by the IDF it seems pretty evident there is a deliberate policy for the journalists to be targeted and Israel may be worried that they would find it difficult to distinguish between international journalists and Palestinian ones. Another war crime!

Or you could read the article, only then you would discover there is plenty of perfectly good evidence for the claims made by the journalist.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 08:31

SharonEllis · 08/11/2025 08:23

Or you could read the article, only then you would discover there is plenty of perfectly good evidence for the claims made by the journalist.

I did waste my time reading the article. Nothing more than he said/she said unsubstantiated and unverified fluff.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 08:46

Iamfree · 08/11/2025 06:28

I blame Hamas. They are so cowardly they can’t even say who are their people and who aren’t. So Israel has no choice. Unfortunately yes “children” (probably 16 year old who participated in the October 7th attack) were killed. Fewer terrorists on the planet. I hope they now close the tunnels with the remaining terrorists in. I hope even blind mumsnetters will recognise that the people left in the tunnels in the yellow zone are terrorists

As for Francesca Albanese, she should go to Gaza herself and STAY THERE

Hamas are a proscribed terrorist organisation and is comprised of some absolutely horrendously cruel and brutal people. The thing is, I think Israel is worse!

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 09:39

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 08:46

Hamas are a proscribed terrorist organisation and is comprised of some absolutely horrendously cruel and brutal people. The thing is, I think Israel is worse!

It's your opinion I suppose. But I think it's awful that anyone would classify a whole country full of different people as worse than a proscribed terrorist organisation.

If I insulted Palestinian civilians by saying they are as bad or worse than Hamas, people would rightly find that offensive. But you are happy to insult every Israeli civilian by saying Israel is worse than Hamas.

SharonEllis · 08/11/2025 09:51

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 08:31

I did waste my time reading the article. Nothing more than he said/she said unsubstantiated and unverified fluff.

If you actually go to twitter you will get all the references too. No threshold of verification would be acceptable to you.

dairydebris · 08/11/2025 09:51

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 09:39

It's your opinion I suppose. But I think it's awful that anyone would classify a whole country full of different people as worse than a proscribed terrorist organisation.

If I insulted Palestinian civilians by saying they are as bad or worse than Hamas, people would rightly find that offensive. But you are happy to insult every Israeli civilian by saying Israel is worse than Hamas.

This thread is a dumpster fire of extreme hate speech masquerading as middle class mum chat.

SharonEllis · 08/11/2025 09:53

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 08:46

Hamas are a proscribed terrorist organisation and is comprised of some absolutely horrendously cruel and brutal people. The thing is, I think Israel is worse!

Well then I think everyone can judge your ability to assess evidence and read your posts accordingly.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 09:57

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 09:39

It's your opinion I suppose. But I think it's awful that anyone would classify a whole country full of different people as worse than a proscribed terrorist organisation.

If I insulted Palestinian civilians by saying they are as bad or worse than Hamas, people would rightly find that offensive. But you are happy to insult every Israeli civilian by saying Israel is worse than Hamas.

I actually did it on purpose as it lines up nicely with the beginning of this thread. Am I talking about every Israeli citizen or just the Israeli government and military. Obviously I do not include the likes of Gideon Levi or members of B'Selem in this and many other Israelis. Problem is though, in a poll by Pew Research Center in 2024, 39% of Israeli's said that the military response was about right whereas 34% said it wasn't strong enough. Only 19% said it had gone too far. As I said in an earlier post, by then Israel had dropped more bombs on Gaza than the allies had on Dresden. 72% of Israelis polled believed that all humanitarian aid to Gaza should be blocked and there is plenty of evidence of Israelis blocking aid trucks and smashing up the aid. So basically, my opinion may not include every single Israeli citizen but it seems to apply to a significant number of them.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 10:02

SharonEllis · 08/11/2025 09:51

If you actually go to twitter you will get all the references too. No threshold of verification would be acceptable to you.

Explain to me how it could be verified when the only information that come out of Gaza is by Israel. I do not believe anything from Hamas or Israel/US without reliable independent verification as both have a motive to lie. I believe my eyes though and the fact that Jeremy Bowen and other journalists were not even allowed to film out of a plane flying over Gaza speaks volumes.

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 10:20

Of course all these figures could have been verified if international journalists were allowed to report from Gaza but as we know, Israel does not allow any international journalists into Gaza.

Doubt it. Hamas clearly wouldn't allow freedom of the press either, and obviously nobody could possibly believe the death stats they've given are correct. So any free press who were allowed in would be prevented from doing their jobs.

Israel are to blame for not allowing journalists in. But you can't be complaining about other people only having half a brain if you think they'd have been allowed to report freely by Hamas had Israel changed their stance.

CircleSquared · 08/11/2025 10:24

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 10:02

Explain to me how it could be verified when the only information that come out of Gaza is by Israel. I do not believe anything from Hamas or Israel/US without reliable independent verification as both have a motive to lie. I believe my eyes though and the fact that Jeremy Bowen and other journalists were not even allowed to film out of a plane flying over Gaza speaks volumes.

The article is a rebuttal to the claim that 83% are civilians. The burden of proof is on the ones making such a claim. The article is pointing out flaws and inconsistencies in the original data and claims made from that data.

Still, I am pleased to hear you at least do not believe any of the data coming out and so have no reason to believe the 83% claim. That was the point of my post.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 10:25

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 10:20

Of course all these figures could have been verified if international journalists were allowed to report from Gaza but as we know, Israel does not allow any international journalists into Gaza.

Doubt it. Hamas clearly wouldn't allow freedom of the press either, and obviously nobody could possibly believe the death stats they've given are correct. So any free press who were allowed in would be prevented from doing their jobs.

Israel are to blame for not allowing journalists in. But you can't be complaining about other people only having half a brain if you think they'd have been allowed to report freely by Hamas had Israel changed their stance.

And your evidence for that is? If Hamas had blocked the press from reporting, we would have been told which would lead to the conclusion that it was Hamas that were lying. Of course we'll never know as it is actually Israel that is stopping the press from reporting.

Twiglets1 · 08/11/2025 10:25

SharonEllis · 08/11/2025 09:53

Well then I think everyone can judge your ability to assess evidence and read your posts accordingly.

Yes ... no longer worth engaging with this individual.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 10:31

CircleSquared · 08/11/2025 10:24

The article is a rebuttal to the claim that 83% are civilians. The burden of proof is on the ones making such a claim. The article is pointing out flaws and inconsistencies in the original data and claims made from that data.

Still, I am pleased to hear you at least do not believe any of the data coming out and so have no reason to believe the 83% claim. That was the point of my post.

I, and I don't think anyone else, has any idea of how many people, civilians and combatants are actually dead. I may have no reason to believe the 83% but then I also have no reason to disbelieve it. Looking at the state of Gaza though, if I were forced to make a bet, I would have to bet on it being correct.

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 10:31

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 10:25

And your evidence for that is? If Hamas had blocked the press from reporting, we would have been told which would lead to the conclusion that it was Hamas that were lying. Of course we'll never know as it is actually Israel that is stopping the press from reporting.

Knowing what Hamas are like. They've got form for mistreating journalists who say inconvenient things as well as people who aren't journos but still insist on not agreeing with them, did you not know that?

If your position is genuinely that they would've gladly allowed the free press in to report on whatever they liked, you don't even have half a brain.

WeCouldBeNiceToEachOther · 08/11/2025 10:32

Israel killed journalists at a hospital and claimed they were Hamas (they weren’t). They’re losing their grip on everything and people see them as what they are, so they resort to this.

CircleSquared · 08/11/2025 10:33

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 09:57

I actually did it on purpose as it lines up nicely with the beginning of this thread. Am I talking about every Israeli citizen or just the Israeli government and military. Obviously I do not include the likes of Gideon Levi or members of B'Selem in this and many other Israelis. Problem is though, in a poll by Pew Research Center in 2024, 39% of Israeli's said that the military response was about right whereas 34% said it wasn't strong enough. Only 19% said it had gone too far. As I said in an earlier post, by then Israel had dropped more bombs on Gaza than the allies had on Dresden. 72% of Israelis polled believed that all humanitarian aid to Gaza should be blocked and there is plenty of evidence of Israelis blocking aid trucks and smashing up the aid. So basically, my opinion may not include every single Israeli citizen but it seems to apply to a significant number of them.

Over the last couple of years, various polls showed high support for Hamas amongst Palestinians and even specifically a large number that agreed with October 7th.

When you condemn Hamas do you make it clear that you’re including a large number of Palestinians too?

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 10:38

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 10:31

Knowing what Hamas are like. They've got form for mistreating journalists who say inconvenient things as well as people who aren't journos but still insist on not agreeing with them, did you not know that?

If your position is genuinely that they would've gladly allowed the free press in to report on whatever they liked, you don't even have half a brain.

I am not advocating for Hamas's honesty or integrity. I am merely applying logic. If Hamas had something to hide, they would block the free press from reporting and we would know they were lying. If they did not have anything to hide, they would not block them. That is simply logical. As it stands, it is Israel who are blocking the free press so by that same logic, it must be Israel that has something to hide from the world.

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 10:46

CircleSquared · 08/11/2025 10:33

Over the last couple of years, various polls showed high support for Hamas amongst Palestinians and even specifically a large number that agreed with October 7th.

When you condemn Hamas do you make it clear that you’re including a large number of Palestinians too?

Absolutely, I condemn anyone who supports the murder and kidnap of civilians on October 7th. As far as polls that show support for Hamas amongst Palestinians are concerned, they would hardly be fair considering Israel is dropping tons of bombs on them. I think a poll before this conflict started would have shown Hamas as not being very popular and hanging on to power using intimidation. At the moment though, I think that the Palestinians feel the enemy of my enemy is my friend so will naturally show support for Hamas.

NikkiPotnick · 08/11/2025 10:48

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 10:38

I am not advocating for Hamas's honesty or integrity. I am merely applying logic. If Hamas had something to hide, they would block the free press from reporting and we would know they were lying. If they did not have anything to hide, they would not block them. That is simply logical. As it stands, it is Israel who are blocking the free press so by that same logic, it must be Israel that has something to hide from the world.

This is many things, but logical is not one of them.

You seem to be operating from the position that only one side can possibly have anything to hide. Clearly this is a failure of logic.

It is Israel's fault that they have chosen not to allow outside journalists into Gaza. They and they alone are responsible for that decision.

It does not follow from this that if Israel changed their minds, Hamas would then have a complete operational change and allow people to speak freely and report things they don't want spreading to the outside. But the only way your argument could make sense is if this obviously false premise were accepted to be correct.

If your view is that Hamas would have a magical change of approach to people saying things they don't like, you will need to explain why.

CircleSquared · 08/11/2025 10:48

Thedawnchorus · 08/11/2025 10:31

I, and I don't think anyone else, has any idea of how many people, civilians and combatants are actually dead. I may have no reason to believe the 83% but then I also have no reason to disbelieve it. Looking at the state of Gaza though, if I were forced to make a bet, I would have to bet on it being correct.

I don’t even know where to go with this.

if I argued that there’s a unicorn on the moon and here are some satellite images to prove it, and then you explained exactly how the satellite images had been manipulated and faked, wouldn’t it be bizarre for me to respond that your claims are unverified and therefore there must indeed be a unicorn? Because at the very least it would mean both claims are unverified and there’s no reason to believe any of it.

Even if one believes that Big Space are hiding something from us, why choose to accept it’s specifically a unicorn even after it’s been pointed out that it’s based on incorrect evidence?

I am not trying to convince you of the civilian casualty rate. I am pointing out that there is no reason to believe the 83%. The Guardian article itself states the 17% is only named Hamas combatants from the database.

I am not trying to convince you to support Israel. I am pointing out statistical manipulation and misinformation.