Central Bank of Ireland confirms it will no longer approve sale of Israeli ‘war bonds’

[Everexpanding]

Good news. Political pressure, protests and letters beginning to work

www.irishtimes.com/business/2025/09/01/israel-to-market-war-bonds-through-luxembourg-as-irish-authority-expires/

Who is the arbiter of what is true Zionism? You? Kahane?

You have already said the World Zionist Organisation isn’t the arbiter.

I agree that Zionism isn’t the government of Israel. Governments are made of people and political parties, not ideologies.

Zionism is an ideology that has been interpreted in vastly different ways and even today there is no consensus.

But to say that Zionism has nothing to do with the government of Israel is a lot like saying communism had nothing to do with the government of the USSR.

Zionism is how Israel was founded and its ideology as understood and implemented by the leaders of its Zionist parties are a large part of why the conflict between Israel and Palestine endures today.

Exactly. There is no consensus on Zionism or Zionist. So your comment that the vast majority of Jewish people are Zionist, that it simply means the belief in a homeland of Israel for Jewish people, and anyone antiZionist is “almost always” antisemitic is as meaningless as it is pointless.

What the major parties believe now is important politically right now but it doesn't define zionism.

It does demonstrate Zionism now.

Ideologies never survive realpolitik without being changed.

For anyone interested in further reading on Israeli Zionist movements that directly affect today’s conflict in Gaza and the West Bank look up Merkaz Harav and Gush Emunim.

There absolutely is a concensus on what zionism is. Its the right to self determination of the Jewish people in their homeland of Israel. What that means to people, how it manifests itself politically in the past, today and in the future will vary. Being a zionist doesn't determine what someone may believe on any any other issue. You'll have right wing zionists and left wing zionists etc. Just because some is a zionist doesnt mean they and their beliefs on any other issue define what zionism is. The political movement, Zionism articulated by Herzl, is a distinct manifestation of zionism in response to the needs of the day (the pogroms), but zionism pre-dates Herzl.

It is antisemitic to deny the jewish people the right to self determination, unless you are some sort of anarchist who thinks all nation states should be destroyed.

As to who the arbiter is, well nobody, its not a difficult concept and its one with a very, very long history so I dont think it needs an arbiter really. But I think the Chief Rabbi is as good a guide as anyone. 'Zionism is nothing more or less than the near 4,000-year-old expression of the Jewish People’s connection to, and right to self-determination in, the land situated at the very heart of Jewish faith and peoplehood.'

'Chaim Weizmann, who would later become the first president of the State of Israel was once asked by a member of the House of Lords why Jews were so fixated on one tiny, contested piece of land. Were there not other territories in which a Jewish state could be established? Weizmann responded that this would be like asking why he had driven 20 miles to visit his mother, when there were many other perfectly nice old ladies living on his street.'

He also says 'Zionism, which upholds this right of the Jewish People to a national home in their ancestral homeland, is undoubtedly best served by a peaceful future for both Israelis and Palestinians.' Other zionists may disagree. That doesn't mean he isn't a zionist or that the definition of zionism has changed.

'I am a Zionist because I believe that alongside the world’s 157 Christian-majority countries and 49 Muslim-majority countries, there is a vital need for a single Jewish country. I am a Zionist because I am committed to the idea that even in a place where conflict has reigned for centuries, peace is achievable and worth fighting for. I am a Zionist because I have inherited a language, culture and faith from the indigenous people of Judea. I am a Zionist because over thousands of years, my ancestors recommitted daily to holding Israel at the heart of their faith. I am a Zionist because I am a Jew.'

www.newstatesman.com/politics/religion/2024/10/what-is-zionism

You are picking out a particularly fundamentalist strand of Zionism, which has been politically important but doesn't alter the basic definition of zionism. It does illustrate my point though, thank you.
All zionist agree believe in the right to self determination of the Jewish people. Not all zionists agree that the activities of Gush Emunim was the way to achieve and sustain it. Gush Emunim emerged out of a political moment with a practical response to it. Its notable that it doesn't really operate anymore. While zionism continues.

Also just to clarify you said But to say that Zionism has nothing to do with the government of Israel is a lot like saying communism had nothing to do with the government of the USSR.
I don't think I did say that. In fact I said Obviously Israel's government is zionist and various political parties in Israel are zionist. It would be a complete nonsense for them not to be. It doesn't mean zionism is the government of Israel. In fact it would be entirely consistent with zionism to be resolutely opposed to the government if you believed they were putting the state of Israel at risk.

It is antisemitic to deny the jewish people the right to self determination, unless you are some sort of anarchist who thinks all nation states should be destroyed.

Yet this is where the whole Ireland is antisemitic thing started isn't it? Because Ireland moved to recognise Palestine so that they could have self determination. So many people here were insistent that self determination isn't a right, it's something that Palestinians need to earn, if they were good little Arabs then maybe some time in the future the right that everyone else has by birth might be possibly be bestowed on them. Israel exploded with anger that Ireland, Spain and Iceland would have the gall to recognise Palestinians as worthy of self determination and lashed out in their usual childish fashion.

Israel signed an agreement on Thursday to move ahead with bisecting the West Bank.
“We are going to fulfil our promise that there will be no Palestinian state. This place belongs to us,” - Netanyahu.

It seems that Israel believe they have the right to self determination where ever they please and fuck everyone else.

We were talking about zionism. You are talking about the current Israeli government.

The definition of zionism means to settle in the land of 'Eretz Israel' that refers to all of the Palestinian territories. You can't just pick and choose the bits you like and then say that's what most zionists believe.

There are no definitive boundaries to 'Eretz Israel'.

“UN investigators say Israel committing genocide in Gaza
UN investigators have determined that Israel has committed “genocide” in Gaza since October 2023, with the “intent to destroy the Palestinians” in the territory”

seems like we are all actually talking about genocide, just seen the above reported

I didn't read this the first time as I thought it related to de Valera, but it was also Hyde!

More from Irish historian Mark Humphrys
1940, for example, Cumann na mBan said the Nazis “are fighting Ireland’s battle, and the battle of all oppressed nations within the Empire”. Three years later Dan Breen, a Fianna Fail TD, sent birthday greetings to Hitler: “Congratulations to the Führer on his birthday. May he live long [and] lead Europe on the road to peace, security and happiness.”

Oliver J Flanagan, as an independent TD, praised Nazi Germany in the Dail in 1943. “There is one thing that Germany did, and that was to rout the Jews out of their country,” he said.

I wonder what pushback there was against all these Nazi sympathisers?

@SharonEllis seriously today?????

Is talking about history banned today? Who decided?

No please do talk away about history on the day this report was published

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/16/israel-committed-genocide-in-gaza-says-un-inquiry

let’s see which side of it you intend to be on

@SharonEllis who is Mark Humphreys I have searched but I can't find an irish.historian by that name. I would be very interested because I did part of my history thesis on Cuman na mBan and I find them very interesting.

Yes you have plastered that wherever you can well done! Are we all supposed to stop what we are doing now? Are you trying to close down discussion on other threads? What about AIBU about people who toot their horns at pedestrians, or tbe excitement of taking the monorail to MK? Or are they ok?

Who is Mark Humphrey’s @SharonEllis ?

I believe the news headline refers to a UN committee looking at intent because genocide requires intent. It's not the ICJ judgement, maybe it's part of the argument in the case.
The initial case was brought by SA, allegedly with funding from Iran. https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2025-03-15-sas-ties-with-iran-and-the-high-price-of-the-ancs-revolutionary-nostalgia/

Meanwhile there are reports that the UN will rule on a 2 state peace backed by Arab nations, with hostage release as a condition and no hamas on the 22 of this month. We'll see what is decided and what power can make it happen.

I cant post the link, I don't know why. Its Humphrys not Humphreys if you want to google and he is at Dublin City University.
You're right, I misunderstood he is not actually a historian. Seems a slightly odd character actually. I'll look into those quotes a bit more fully but I doubt they are incorrect if pulished in tbe Times. It would be interesting to know more about the context.

Rabbit hole here.

Yeah your right about both of those politicians. Breen said that, he seems to have been so anti Britain (fought in War of Independence) he supported Hitler but he also lamented a fascist political party in Ireland not getting any seats.

Flannagan was also an open anti semite. Be also said on the Late Late Show " there was no sex in Ireland before television" and I think he believed it!

That's quite a denial of reality! Thank you, interesting.

@SharonEllis this is Mark Humphrys, I’d take down his post, he is a loon and his twitter feed is vey distasteful

www.irishtimes.com/news/education/dcu-lecturer-who-called-george-floyd-another-useless-criminal-defends-blog-1.4736777