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Conflict in the Middle East

Israel committing genocide in Gaza, world’s top scholars on the crime say

681 replies

Everexpanding · 01/09/2025 17:15

An overwhelming majority of members of the world’s leading genocide scholars’ association have backed a resolution stating that Israel’s actions in Gaza meet the legal definition of the crime.
Eighty-six per cent of those who voted in the 500-member International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) supported the motion. The resolution states that “Israel’s policies and actions in Gaza meet the legal definition of genocide in article II of the United Nations convention for the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide (1948).”

www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/01/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-worlds-top-scholars-on-the-say

Gaza | The Guardian

Latest news, sport, business, comment, analysis and reviews from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice

https://www.theguardian.com/world/gaza

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
PinkBobby · 10/09/2025 11:21

Beachtastic · 10/09/2025 10:02

@PinkBobby I see what you mean (and sorry about re-sharing "your" article!). And I take your points about setting a precedent. But re Qatar, it's a tricky one because you can't kill an octopus by just cutting off its tentacles.

I'm obviously no more a military strategist than I am a law specialist 😖, but I wouldn't fancy going into one of those tunnels via a building that may be booby-trapped and is likely to be closely guarded.

Also, personally, if people in London had orchestrated attacks like 7/10 and promised plenty more where that came from, I would absolutely accept the consequences if the victims retaliated.

Don’t worry! It really was a good (if terrifying) article.

I agree that it’s hard to wipe out a network that doesn’t abide by borders. We don’t seem to have worked out how to do it without creating more violence and terrorists. Which is why I think I push for a change of direction (rather than ramping up violence in loads of other countries). If only to reduce the threat to Israel rather than increase it.

I also wouldn’t take a trip into one of those tunnels. I read an article by the IDF that they’re using drones when possible but it is still an horrible way to fight.

I think it’s safe to say there are terrorist cells in the UK. I would be horrified if they were bombed and a British police officer was killed. Not identical circumstances, I know. But I firmly believe innocent people shouldn’t be punished or killed for the crimes of terrorists.

Beachtastic · 10/09/2025 11:43

Everexpanding · 10/09/2025 10:20

@Beachtastic do you think Northern Ireland should have been bombed by the Uk government in the 1980s?
would we have peace now if it had been?

I grew up in Birmingham in the 1970s and remember bombs going off in pubs, bomb scares at school, town-centre pubs where they passed round a hat with a wink to "collect for Gary Owen" (IIRC; it was a while back!) and watched you beadily as you dropped in a coin, and most exciting of all a very shy girl being expelled from school for stockpiling explosive devices for the IRA (discovered because she was, at the time, staying at my best friend's house and shoving parcels under the bed). None of this affected me directly, apart from school closures (which were rather nice) and, just once, a friend of a friend being killed in a blast. We were all vaguely conscious that it was all a terrible mess and that something would need to be done to redress historical grievances, but bombing Ireland would have been outrageous.

However, if the IRA had carried out a pogrom like 7/10 against my friends and family, however distant, and promised to repeat it until we were all gone, I'm sure I wouldn't have been the only one to want to nuke the fuckers into oblivion. Sorry!

@PinkBobby it's all FUBAR isn't it. The trouble with terrorism is that "impacting civilians" is deliberately built into the design -- that's why it's terror, not war 😟

SharonEllis · 10/09/2025 12:00

Everexpanding · 10/09/2025 10:20

@Beachtastic do you think Northern Ireland should have been bombed by the Uk government in the 1980s?
would we have peace now if it had been?

When did Northern Irish terrorists carry out a pogrom in any way comparable to 7/10. They also were not the government. Hamas is.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/09/2025 12:14

PinkBobby · 10/09/2025 08:19

Interesting - what about agricultural areas being flattened? Or even just saving hospitals because they can’t evacuate them fully? I get that some buildings are being used by Hamas but I feel that the hospitals in question have been, first and foremost, hospitals looking after sick and injured people. And I understand destroying buildings to access the tunnels but do you have to flatten everything then go in and destroy tunnels? Or, as I said, destroy agricultural areas where there are no tunnel entrances?

And the death rate question is tbc - no accurate figures available yet. I find it interesting that Israel say Hamas numbers are wrong but don’t provide any of their own information to try and balance out the propaganda. Either, they don’t know how much harm they are doing with all this destruction or they know and don’t want to share the figures.

It seems all their destruction has not got them very far against Hamas as compared to against civilians. I have posted this before but possibly not on a thread you were on at the time. Apologies if you have already seen it.
This is from +972 Magazine by Yuval Abraham.

www.972mag.com/israeli-intelligence-database-83-percent-civilians-militants/

PinkBobby · 10/09/2025 13:09

ScrollingLeaves · 10/09/2025 12:14

It seems all their destruction has not got them very far against Hamas as compared to against civilians. I have posted this before but possibly not on a thread you were on at the time. Apologies if you have already seen it.
This is from +972 Magazine by Yuval Abraham.

www.972mag.com/israeli-intelligence-database-83-percent-civilians-militants/

It’s very hard to work out the real picture - some articles say Hamas numbers are about the same S 3 years ago, no one seems to have a clue how many civilians are actually dead. I fear that we’ll only appreciate the full extent of this conflict in the years to come when it’s too late.

Beachtastic · 10/09/2025 13:24

I fear that we’ll only appreciate the full extent of this conflict in the years to come when it’s too late

But Israel probably fear that if they do too little, they will only appreciate the full extent of their underaction in the years to come when it's too late...?

🫤😩😢

MumOfManyAliases · 10/09/2025 13:44

Over 16 million children in Sudan are currently out of school. The same number are facing severe malnutrition. This year alone, 1,200 children under the age of 5 in the White Nile campus in Sudan died due to disease and malnutrition. At least 150,000 people have died from conflict related fatalities since it began in 2023. These are just some of the snapshots of the horrors that are happening. But no one ever seems to mention Sudan or not anywhere near the same extent as the conflict in Gaza. Why?

Everexpanding · 10/09/2025 13:56

Perhaps because this is the Conflict in the Middle East board

OP posts:
PinkBobby · 10/09/2025 14:01

MumOfManyAliases · 10/09/2025 13:44

Over 16 million children in Sudan are currently out of school. The same number are facing severe malnutrition. This year alone, 1,200 children under the age of 5 in the White Nile campus in Sudan died due to disease and malnutrition. At least 150,000 people have died from conflict related fatalities since it began in 2023. These are just some of the snapshots of the horrors that are happening. But no one ever seems to mention Sudan or not anywhere near the same extent as the conflict in Gaza. Why?

I’d also like to add that very sadly people don’t seem to care as much about poverty and humanitarian crises in African countries. I’ve said it a lot on here but we have awful images of suffering popping up between this morning segments or letters through our door and most people don’t bother to actually donate. This apathy is very sad but could say more about our views of African countries than it does about our views on Israel.

PrawnAgain · 10/09/2025 14:45

MumOfManyAliases · 10/09/2025 13:44

Over 16 million children in Sudan are currently out of school. The same number are facing severe malnutrition. This year alone, 1,200 children under the age of 5 in the White Nile campus in Sudan died due to disease and malnutrition. At least 150,000 people have died from conflict related fatalities since it began in 2023. These are just some of the snapshots of the horrors that are happening. But no one ever seems to mention Sudan or not anywhere near the same extent as the conflict in Gaza. Why?

Partly because of anti-black racism.

That isn't a defense for Israel's actions though, is it?

Everexpanding · 10/09/2025 16:18

Led by donkeys and Amos Goldberg: yes it’s a Genocide
m.youtube.com/watch?v=WMwqhdVV5as

OP posts:
MumOfManyAliases · 10/09/2025 16:55

PrawnAgain · 10/09/2025 14:45

Partly because of anti-black racism.

That isn't a defense for Israel's actions though, is it?

Still doesn’t explain why the majority of attention is directed at Gaza and none towards what’s going on in Sudan though.

TulipLavender · 10/09/2025 17:09

MumOfManyAliases · 10/09/2025 13:44

Over 16 million children in Sudan are currently out of school. The same number are facing severe malnutrition. This year alone, 1,200 children under the age of 5 in the White Nile campus in Sudan died due to disease and malnutrition. At least 150,000 people have died from conflict related fatalities since it began in 2023. These are just some of the snapshots of the horrors that are happening. But no one ever seems to mention Sudan or not anywhere near the same extent as the conflict in Gaza. Why?

If you start a new thread on this outside of the conflict in the middle east board, let me know. I will be interested to participate. I wonder if any mumsnet posters will be denying or justifying those horrendous things.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 10/09/2025 18:30

Beachtastic · 10/09/2025 11:43

I grew up in Birmingham in the 1970s and remember bombs going off in pubs, bomb scares at school, town-centre pubs where they passed round a hat with a wink to "collect for Gary Owen" (IIRC; it was a while back!) and watched you beadily as you dropped in a coin, and most exciting of all a very shy girl being expelled from school for stockpiling explosive devices for the IRA (discovered because she was, at the time, staying at my best friend's house and shoving parcels under the bed). None of this affected me directly, apart from school closures (which were rather nice) and, just once, a friend of a friend being killed in a blast. We were all vaguely conscious that it was all a terrible mess and that something would need to be done to redress historical grievances, but bombing Ireland would have been outrageous.

However, if the IRA had carried out a pogrom like 7/10 against my friends and family, however distant, and promised to repeat it until we were all gone, I'm sure I wouldn't have been the only one to want to nuke the fuckers into oblivion. Sorry!

@PinkBobby it's all FUBAR isn't it. The trouble with terrorism is that "impacting civilians" is deliberately built into the design -- that's why it's terror, not war 😟

However, if the IRA had carried out a pogrom like 7/10 against my friends and family, however distant, and promised to repeat it until we were all gone, I'm sure I wouldn't have been the only one to want to nuke the fuckers into oblivion. Sorry!

So you’re saying you think Israel is justified in “nuking the fuckers into oblivion”- which is essentially what they’re doing to Gaza? At least you admit it’s about obliteration, not “self-defence.”

And you’d be happy for over 80% of those deaths to be innocent civilians, including over 20K children (214 of them newborns) to be killed to achieve this?

Maybe someone should have taught you that two wrongs don’t make a right. Also, let’s not pretend that this started on 7/10.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 10/09/2025 18:34

SharonEllis · 10/09/2025 12:00

When did Northern Irish terrorists carry out a pogrom in any way comparable to 7/10. They also were not the government. Hamas is.

Depends how far back you go. Millions of Irish starved under British rule and had their land stolen.

Beachtastic · 10/09/2025 18:39

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 10/09/2025 18:30

However, if the IRA had carried out a pogrom like 7/10 against my friends and family, however distant, and promised to repeat it until we were all gone, I'm sure I wouldn't have been the only one to want to nuke the fuckers into oblivion. Sorry!

So you’re saying you think Israel is justified in “nuking the fuckers into oblivion”- which is essentially what they’re doing to Gaza? At least you admit it’s about obliteration, not “self-defence.”

And you’d be happy for over 80% of those deaths to be innocent civilians, including over 20K children (214 of them newborns) to be killed to achieve this?

Maybe someone should have taught you that two wrongs don’t make a right. Also, let’s not pretend that this started on 7/10.

I was answering your very specific question about whether I felt the IRA should have been bombed and whether it would have improved things. Of course not, especially as @SharonEllis there is no comparison between the situations.

I was also expressing how I would have felt, not suggesting ideal government policy! This is MN, not a consortium of experts dictating strategy (thank god!).

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 10/09/2025 18:39

Beachtastic · 09/09/2025 20:50

Israeli soldiers had shot toward Palestinians holding white flags outside an officially approved route near an aid distribution center in Gaza in mid-June, the Wall Street Journal reported Sunday, citing an IDF combat reservist.

The Gazans had approached the soldiers despite calls to stay back. "We have an unwritten rule that if you are worried and they get too close and you see that it could be something that puts you and your team at risk, you don't take that risk."

Yes, that’s exactly what the article I linked shows: IDF soldiers were ordered to fire on unarmed Palestinians waiting for aid. The “unwritten rule” excuse doesn’t change the fact that these were civilians people with no weapons, standing in a designated area, waiting for humanitarian assistance. Even under the laws of war, deliberately targeting civilians or people seeking aid is illegal.

It’s not about risk perception. Its about systematically preventing people from accessing food, water, and medical care. Multiple testimonies and reports show this isn’t an isolated incident. It’s repeated organised and documented- which is why it’s classified as a war crime under international law.

Beachtastic · 10/09/2025 18:41

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 10/09/2025 18:39

Yes, that’s exactly what the article I linked shows: IDF soldiers were ordered to fire on unarmed Palestinians waiting for aid. The “unwritten rule” excuse doesn’t change the fact that these were civilians people with no weapons, standing in a designated area, waiting for humanitarian assistance. Even under the laws of war, deliberately targeting civilians or people seeking aid is illegal.

It’s not about risk perception. Its about systematically preventing people from accessing food, water, and medical care. Multiple testimonies and reports show this isn’t an isolated incident. It’s repeated organised and documented- which is why it’s classified as a war crime under international law.

You might dismiss the "risk perception" but if it were your son / brother / whatever being approached in that situatiion you might also want them to take whatever measures are needed to prioritise their own safety. It's an unwritten rule that has played out in many conflicts, for good reason.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 10/09/2025 18:47

Beachtastic · 10/09/2025 18:39

I was answering your very specific question about whether I felt the IRA should have been bombed and whether it would have improved things. Of course not, especially as @SharonEllis there is no comparison between the situations.

I was also expressing how I would have felt, not suggesting ideal government policy! This is MN, not a consortium of experts dictating strategy (thank god!).

Funny how “self-defence” only seems to apply when the other side is mostly children. “Nuke them into oblivion” isn’t self-defence, it’s mass slaughter- two wrongs don’t make a right, and bombing entire neighbourhoods, starving civilians, and killing tens of thousands of children doesn’t suddenly become moral because someone else committed an atrocity first.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 10/09/2025 18:57

Beachtastic · 10/09/2025 18:41

You might dismiss the "risk perception" but if it were your son / brother / whatever being approached in that situatiion you might also want them to take whatever measures are needed to prioritise their own safety. It's an unwritten rule that has played out in many conflicts, for good reason.

No, I would not justify the deaths of 214 newborn babies because of risk to my brother / child or any other family member. Children have been disproportionately targeted and there is no justification.

I’ve said this before but I’ll keep repeating myself for as long as I have the will.

It’s due to the man made famine, caused by Israel that children have been so disproportionately affected. Children have been deliberately deprived of food and over half a million children are now suffering from acute malnutrition.

In terms of children being targeted in attacks:
When it's a few children then maybe it could be attributed to an error? But when children have been disproportionately affected, it raises serious concerns. Because children have been targeted. Repeatedly and systematically, and we have the evidence. There would have been no logical reason for the IDF to target Amna al-Mufti, an 11-year-old Palestinian girl- yet she was targeted and killed by one of their drones. And this is not an isolated case. There have been multiple instances of children being killed just queuing for water alone.

In TWO YEARS, Palestinian children account for 30% of the death toll (so far). A rough comparison:
Syria 2011-23 5-6%
Yemen 2015-2023 10-15%
Iraq 2003-2011 9%

Why has baby formula been withheld from entering? Combined with statements from Israeli leaders and officials a disturbing pattern emerges.

SharonEllis · 10/09/2025 19:00

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 10/09/2025 18:34

Depends how far back you go. Millions of Irish starved under British rule and had their land stolen.

This makes no sense. Irish who starved on the potato famine were not terrorists. They did not initiate a pogrom like 7 October (which was my point) and by definition if they were under British rule they were not the government.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 10/09/2025 19:03

SharonEllis · 10/09/2025 19:00

This makes no sense. Irish who starved on the potato famine were not terrorists. They did not initiate a pogrom like 7 October (which was my point) and by definition if they were under British rule they were not the government.

My point is that, judging by the justifications some are giving here for Israel’s actions, by the same logic the Irish could have been ‘justified’ in massive retaliation for the famine and land theft they suffered under British rule. Two wrongs still don’t make a right.

Ellen2shoes · 10/09/2025 19:21

PinkBobby · 09/09/2025 19:00

The Nazi’s had many, many meetings with officials and officers at senior levels discussing the implementation of the final solution. It was well documented.

So it was discussed in private at a senior level? As I said - not broadcast to the world openly.

In Rwanda, documentation showed that the genocide had been planned for 4 years. In additional, instructions were given over radio broadcasts to kill.

Again, are these not private meetings that we now know about because of the benefit of time? I’m sure a lot will one day come out about what is happening in Gaza. Sadly, we don’t have the info now.

Hamas planned 7/10 - a genocide - and no one knew. Without hindsight, it’s hard to spot these things until it’s too late.

Genocide is a very specific act, which is planned. It’s not just deaths in war.
This we can agree on - there are different ways of going about this terrible aim though.

You think BN, Government officials and IDF officers are actually sitting down, discussing, planning and implementing the extermination of Palestinians?

Smotrich (Finance minister)

  • Wants to “erase the Palestinian state” by “correcting” Israel’s withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and the northern West Bank during the 2005 Disengagement.
  • “The people of Israel are correcting the sin of Gaza,” he said, referring to the push among settler activists to reestablish the Gush Katif settlement bloc
  • “Gaza will be entirely destroyed, civilians will be sent to... the south to a humanitarian zone without Hamas or terrorism, and from there they will start to leave in great numbers to third countries”
  • “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.“
  • “not even a grain of wheat” should be allowed into Gaza.
  • re settler development in the West Bank: “This reality finally buries the idea of a Palestinian state, because there is nothing to recognise and no one to recognise.”

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant

  • Israel was “fighting human animals,” in announcing a complete siege on Gaza.
  • “I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,”

Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi

  • Israelis had one common goal, “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.”

Israeli Heritage Minister Amichay Eliyahu

  • suggested that Israel drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza and said there were “no uninvolved civilians” in the territory.

Ben-Gvir - National Security Minister

  • Talking about the US: “They expressed support for my very clear position on how to act in Gaza and that the food and aid depots should be bombed in order to create military and political pressure to bring our hostages home safely,”
  • said the resumption of aid deliveries into Gaza was a “serious and grave mistake.”

These are a selection of things that have been shared publicly. There are many more examples but there’s only so much hatred I can take in one go. I would hate to think what is said in private meetings about what they’d like to do in Gaza and the WB

If so, why are we not seeing what is happening in Gaza happen in the West Bank?
Let’s see what the WB looks like in a few months (in light of Smotrich’s quotes). There’s already talk of annexing most of it. Have a google and see for yourself.

I think this explanation of why it is a genocide is clear. This was December 2024 and although there is still denial, the world view has shifted since then:

My name is Amos Goldberg. I am an Israeli Professor of Holocaust Studies. For nearly 30 years I have researched and taught the Holocaust, genocide and state violence.

And I want to tell whoever is willing to listen that what’s happening now in Gaza is a genocide.

A year ago when October 7th happened, like all Israelis I was in shock. It was a war crime and a crime against humanity. 1200 people - more than 800 of them civilians - were killed in one day. Children and the elderly were among those taken hostage. Communities were destroyed. It was outrageous, traumatizing, personal. Like most Israelis, I know people who were killed, who lost loved ones or whose loved ones were taken hostage.

But immediately afterwards came Israel’s response and within weeks thousands of civilians were killed in Gaza. It took me some time to digest what was unfolding before my eyes. It was agonizing to confront that reality. I was reluctant to call it a genocide.

But if you read Raphael Lemkin – the Jewish-Polish legal scholar who coined the term ‘genocide’ and was the major driving force behind the 1948 United Nations Genocide Convention – what is happening in Gaza now is exactly what he had in mind when he spoke about genocide.

It does not need to look like the Holocaust to be a genocide. Each genocide looks different and not all involve killing of millions or the entire group. The United Nations Genocide Convention explicitly asserts that genocide is the act of deliberately destroying a group in whole or in part. Those are the words.

But there does need to be a clear intent.

And indeed, there are clear indications of intent to destroy Gaza: Israel’s leaders - including the prime minister and the minister of defence - and many high-ranking military officers, media personalities, rabbis, as well as ordinary soldiers were very open about what they wanted to achieve. There were countless documented incitements to turn the whole of Gaza into rubble and claims that there are no innocent people living there.

A radical atmosphere of dehumanization of the Palestinians prevails in Israeli society to an extent that I can’t remember in my 58 years of living here.

Now that vision has been enacted. Tens of thousands of innocent children, women and men have been killed. Over a hundred thousand were wounded. There is a near total destruction of infrastructure, intentional starvation and blocking of humanitarian aid. There are mass graves and reliable testimony of summary executions. Children that were shot by snipers. All the universities and almost all hospitals are gone. Almost all the population is displaced. There have been numerous bombings of civilians in so-called ‘safe zones’. Gaza does not exist anymore. It is completely destroyed. Thus, the outcome fits perfectly with the stated intentions of Israel’s leadership.

Lemkin - that scholar who coined the term ‘genocide’ - described two phases of a genocide. The first is the destruction of the annihilated group and the second is what he called ‘imposition of the national pattern’ of the perpetrator. We are now witnessing the second phase as Israel prepares ethnically cleansed areas for Israeli settlements.

And therefore, I have come to the conclusion that this is exactly what a genocide looks like. We don’t teach about genocides in order to realize it retrospectively. We teach about it in order to prevent it and to stop it.

But like in every other case of genocide in history right now we have mass denial. Both here in Israel and around the world.

But reality cannot be denied.

So yes, it is a genocide.

And once you come to this conclusion you cannot remain silent.”

Beachtastic · 10/09/2025 19:40

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 10/09/2025 18:57

No, I would not justify the deaths of 214 newborn babies because of risk to my brother / child or any other family member. Children have been disproportionately targeted and there is no justification.

I’ve said this before but I’ll keep repeating myself for as long as I have the will.

It’s due to the man made famine, caused by Israel that children have been so disproportionately affected. Children have been deliberately deprived of food and over half a million children are now suffering from acute malnutrition.

In terms of children being targeted in attacks:
When it's a few children then maybe it could be attributed to an error? But when children have been disproportionately affected, it raises serious concerns. Because children have been targeted. Repeatedly and systematically, and we have the evidence. There would have been no logical reason for the IDF to target Amna al-Mufti, an 11-year-old Palestinian girl- yet she was targeted and killed by one of their drones. And this is not an isolated case. There have been multiple instances of children being killed just queuing for water alone.

In TWO YEARS, Palestinian children account for 30% of the death toll (so far). A rough comparison:
Syria 2011-23 5-6%
Yemen 2015-2023 10-15%
Iraq 2003-2011 9%

Why has baby formula been withheld from entering? Combined with statements from Israeli leaders and officials a disturbing pattern emerges.

Children are disproportionately affected because the Gazan population is disproportionately high in children, not because they have been specifically targeted.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25993-the-reasons-why-gazas-population-is-so-young/

The reasons why Gaza's population is so young

More than 40 per cent of the population of Gaza is aged 14 or younger The population density of the Gaza Strip has been disputed , but in comparison with other cities, Gaza City, with a population of around 750,000, is undoubtedly a densely populated u...

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25993-the-reasons-why-gazas-population-is-so-young/

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 10/09/2025 19:49

Beachtastic · 10/09/2025 19:40

Children are disproportionately affected because the Gazan population is disproportionately high in children, not because they have been specifically targeted.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25993-the-reasons-why-gazas-population-is-so-young/

Actually, the high proportion of children in Gaza doesn’t explain repeated, systematic attacks on schools, hospitals, water queues, aid convoys, and other civilian infrastructure where children are present. Targeting places where children are known to be, and depriving them of food, water, and medical care, goes far beyond demographics. It’s deliberate.

Over half a million children suffering from acute malnutrition isn’t a coincidence, and documented drone strikes killing children like Amna al-Mufti show they are being disproportionately affected by choice, not just by population statistics.

On average since October 2023, Israel has killed one child every hour.