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Conflict in the Middle East

Israeli security cabinet expected to approve Gaza takeover plan

604 replies

Twiglets1 · 07/08/2025 10:18

Sky News report that Israel is expected to approve Benjamin Netanyahu's plan for a takeover of Gaza when the security cabinet meets later today.

According to the Times of Israel, the full cabinet is due to convene at 6pm local time, 4pm in the UK.

Israeli media are reporting that the plan could potentially span over five months, and it is likely to be aimed at destroying Hamas and pressuring it to free remaining hostages.

While some ministers have been critical of the plan, reports suggest Netanyahu is likely to secure a majority of support.

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-latest-hostages-famine-aid-hamas-idf-war-palestine-state-live-13398805

Gaza latest: Israeli security cabinet 'expected to approve' Gaza takeover plan - as aid trucks wait at Egyptian border

Israel's full security cabinet is expected to approve Benjamin Netanyahu's Gaza takeover plan when it convenes today, according to Israeli media. Pictures show aid trucks waiting at the border with Egypt amid growing fears about famine. Follow the late...

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-latest-hostages-famine-aid-hamas-idf-war-palestine-state-live-13398805

OP posts:
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Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 15:24

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 15:19

I don't care to get into a discussion about what caused Hamas.

I'm a pragmatist and prefer to look at solving problems than to keep going back over the past and trying to apportion blame which both sides will never agree on anyway (we can't even agree on MN, let alone expect Israel & Hamas to).

Realistically, Israel are never going to agree to let Hamas remain in Gaza after 7/10. You're wasting your time dreaming of that outcome because it just won't happen even if you were right about it being the most moral outcome.

Then, as a pragmatist, do you believe that what Israel has been doing is the best way to remove Hamas?

I would have thought that a pragmatist's position would be that the best way to eradicate Hamas would be to eradicate the reasons for their being.

PinkBobby · 11/08/2025 15:29

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 15:19

I don't care to get into a discussion about what caused Hamas.

I'm a pragmatist and prefer to look at solving problems than to keep going back over the past and trying to apportion blame which both sides will never agree on anyway (we can't even agree on MN, let alone expect Israel & Hamas to).

Realistically, Israel are never going to agree to let Hamas remain in Gaza after 7/10. You're wasting your time dreaming of that outcome because it just won't happen even if you were right about it being the most moral outcome.

I think we agree on plenty of things but I believe the reason Hamas exists is exactly what we should be talking about when trying to find solutions. Because Hamas being destroyed doesn’t mean the suffering ends for Palestinians. They suffered before 7/10 escalated the conflict and not just at the hands of Hamas. To really find peace in the region, Israel has to change too. Otherwise, Hamas will be replaced by another terrorist group that pushes back against being controlled or settler violence. The key, I believe, to a lot this is to give Palestinians an alternative that leads to peace and a huge part of that is about Israel’s behaviour toward that area and its people.

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 15:31

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 15:20

Then your moral judgement runs counter to what is lawful. Which is not necessarily a condemnation: I also believe that the view of liability in its codification in law is incomplete, but for different reasons from you.

The issue, then, is in terrorism legislation. If membership of a terrorist organisation can be grounds for killing (according to your position), with some qualification that might look something like "when the acts perpetrated by the terrorist organisation are sufficiently objectionable", then what decides whether or not someone is liable to killing is the proscription.

This is the slippery slope that I mention. Once we start going outside of the rules of war to seek justification for killing, we end up leaving the judgement in the hands of, say, a government, who may unilaterally decide that a political enemy is too much trouble to deal with legally, and so proscribe and kill them extra-judiciously.

If you accept that killing on the grounds of membership of a terrorist organisation is reasonable, then you place the deciding vote in the hands of the state.

There are many reasons that this might be a bad idea, but suffice it to say, that the Geneva Conventions and the structure of IHL are designed precisely to prevent this sort of killing, and the slippery slope that it introduces to IAC. It would be perfectly possible for Israel to have killed that journalist according to the rules of law (without the need to step outside of it), had he been an active combatant. The fact that we are even having to debate this is a telling indictment on Israel's conduct.

Maybe it does - that wouldn't upset me if my moral judgement did run counter to what is lawful because laws aren't always morally right (homosexuality used to be considered a sin & against the law etc).

I believe the IDF had more evidence than just that this journalist was a member of Hamas in the same way that maybe I'm a member of my local library but rarely take books out. He was cheering on 7/10 according to his own telegram, he was photographed with top Hamas leadership, he was strongly involved with the propaganda war effort. This is just some of the evidence we know about and I don't suppose we know everything about why he was one of the 6 journalists they specifically wanted to kill.

Israel will have to face a lot of investigation after the war (rightly) as will Hamas for their conduct in the war. I doubt the IDF will get punished if this man is determined to have been an active Hamas member by whoever does the investigation. After all, Netanyahu repeats often enough his goal to destroy Hamas and I don't see anyone telling him it's against the Geneva Convention to destroy your enemies in a war - especially enemies that attacked first.

OP posts:
Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 15:39

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 15:31

Maybe it does - that wouldn't upset me if my moral judgement did run counter to what is lawful because laws aren't always morally right (homosexuality used to be considered a sin & against the law etc).

I believe the IDF had more evidence than just that this journalist was a member of Hamas in the same way that maybe I'm a member of my local library but rarely take books out. He was cheering on 7/10 according to his own telegram, he was photographed with top Hamas leadership, he was strongly involved with the propaganda war effort. This is just some of the evidence we know about and I don't suppose we know everything about why he was one of the 6 journalists they specifically wanted to kill.

Israel will have to face a lot of investigation after the war (rightly) as will Hamas for their conduct in the war. I doubt the IDF will get punished if this man is determined to have been an active Hamas member by whoever does the investigation. After all, Netanyahu repeats often enough his goal to destroy Hamas and I don't see anyone telling him it's against the Geneva Convention to destroy your enemies in a war - especially enemies that attacked first.

Edited

As I say, your beliefs running counter to what is lawful is not necessarily a condemnation, however, do you see the reasons why it is a bad idea to make that specific adjustment to liability?

This is not even considering that (to my knowledge) no account exists in contemporary moral philosophy (of defensive action, or ethics of war) in which liability is constructed in the way that you suggest. It is dangerously close to (perhaps even crosses the border into) liability-through-membership (as J. McMahan calls it, see Killing in War, as well as a few of his other papers, esp. "Who is Morally Liable to be Killed in War").

This kind of thinking is the same that is used to justify the killing of people due to perceived membership of distinct groups. It is the reasoning of genocidaires, not of ethics of war, or moral philosophy scholarship (and certainly, as said, legally groundless).

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 16:16

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 15:39

As I say, your beliefs running counter to what is lawful is not necessarily a condemnation, however, do you see the reasons why it is a bad idea to make that specific adjustment to liability?

This is not even considering that (to my knowledge) no account exists in contemporary moral philosophy (of defensive action, or ethics of war) in which liability is constructed in the way that you suggest. It is dangerously close to (perhaps even crosses the border into) liability-through-membership (as J. McMahan calls it, see Killing in War, as well as a few of his other papers, esp. "Who is Morally Liable to be Killed in War").

This kind of thinking is the same that is used to justify the killing of people due to perceived membership of distinct groups. It is the reasoning of genocidaires, not of ethics of war, or moral philosophy scholarship (and certainly, as said, legally groundless).

Nope you've lost me but I'm sure that if Israel committed a war crime by targeting this journalist they will be punished for it after the war.

You're talking like a lawyer and sorry but that is a condemnation (light hearted).

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Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 16:24

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 16:16

Nope you've lost me but I'm sure that if Israel committed a war crime by targeting this journalist they will be punished for it after the war.

You're talking like a lawyer and sorry but that is a condemnation (light hearted).

Not meaning to talk like a lawyer, just trying to be clear on why what you're proposing is dangerous.

The question that matters most (IMO) is not whether the journalist was a terrorist, or a supporter of terrorism, or in some way a member of Hamas. The question that matters is when and why those things make it possible to kill them.

If you believe that being a person being member of Hamas makes it permissible to kill them at any time, anywhere, then you have to be able to back that up with some kind of reasoning.

As for whether Israel will be tried for war crimes, and whether this assassination will be one of them, you appear to have a lot more faith in the application of IHL and the accountability under the rules based order than I do.

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 16:32

PinkBobby · 11/08/2025 15:29

I think we agree on plenty of things but I believe the reason Hamas exists is exactly what we should be talking about when trying to find solutions. Because Hamas being destroyed doesn’t mean the suffering ends for Palestinians. They suffered before 7/10 escalated the conflict and not just at the hands of Hamas. To really find peace in the region, Israel has to change too. Otherwise, Hamas will be replaced by another terrorist group that pushes back against being controlled or settler violence. The key, I believe, to a lot this is to give Palestinians an alternative that leads to peace and a huge part of that is about Israel’s behaviour toward that area and its people.

The Israel government is focused more than anything on the safety of their own people and have been for many years (hence the Iron Dome) which is why they will never allow Hamas to remain.

I can agree with you that Israel need to change too and a more moderate government would be very helpful with that.

Netanyahu has said that Israel don't want to stay in Gaza after the war and that he wants an alternative civil administration to rule it. In the Fox interview he said, "We don't want to govern it," and "We don't want to be there as a governing body. We want to hand it over to Arab forces."

This could be a good idea, if a suitable "alternative civil administration" can be agreed?

OP posts:
Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 16:36

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 16:32

The Israel government is focused more than anything on the safety of their own people and have been for many years (hence the Iron Dome) which is why they will never allow Hamas to remain.

I can agree with you that Israel need to change too and a more moderate government would be very helpful with that.

Netanyahu has said that Israel don't want to stay in Gaza after the war and that he wants an alternative civil administration to rule it. In the Fox interview he said, "We don't want to govern it," and "We don't want to be there as a governing body. We want to hand it over to Arab forces."

This could be a good idea, if a suitable "alternative civil administration" can be agreed?

It will not address the core issue, which is that the type of terrorism perpetrated by Hamas will still be a problem for Israel. For as long as the state of Israel exists in the way that it does, and the Palestinian people are subjugated, Israel will not be free of Hamas and Hamas-like organisations.

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 16:47

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 16:24

Not meaning to talk like a lawyer, just trying to be clear on why what you're proposing is dangerous.

The question that matters most (IMO) is not whether the journalist was a terrorist, or a supporter of terrorism, or in some way a member of Hamas. The question that matters is when and why those things make it possible to kill them.

If you believe that being a person being member of Hamas makes it permissible to kill them at any time, anywhere, then you have to be able to back that up with some kind of reasoning.

As for whether Israel will be tried for war crimes, and whether this assassination will be one of them, you appear to have a lot more faith in the application of IHL and the accountability under the rules based order than I do.

If you believe that being a person being member of Hamas makes it permissible to kill them at any time, anywhere, then you have to be able to back that up with some kind of reasoning.

I don't actually as I'm not in a court of law trying to win a case I'm just debating my opinions with other Mumsnetters. I think the action was morally justifiable (if indeed he is a member of Hamas which for now I'm assuming he is going by the current evidence). Legally it may be a different matter but that is not something for me to decide. As I said before, both Israel and Hamas will face investigations after the war and I do think both sides will be found guilty of certain war crimes.

OP posts:
Kakeandkake · 11/08/2025 16:49

You think it was morally justifiable to kill Anas Al Sharif?

Oh well, In that case I think it's morally justifiable to kill Netanyahu the war criminal seeing as we are all just giving our opinions on who we think it is morally ok to kill.

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 16:51

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 16:36

It will not address the core issue, which is that the type of terrorism perpetrated by Hamas will still be a problem for Israel. For as long as the state of Israel exists in the way that it does, and the Palestinian people are subjugated, Israel will not be free of Hamas and Hamas-like organisations.

You may be right about that but nothing changes the fact (actually its an opinion) that Netanyahu will never allow Hamas to remain in Gaza.

A sensible moderate Israeli government would indeed not seek to subjugate the Palestinian people after the war.

I hope for everyone's sake that the governing body chosen to rule Gaza in the future with their Arab forces are able to keep peace with both sides.

OP posts:
Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 16:53

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 16:47

If you believe that being a person being member of Hamas makes it permissible to kill them at any time, anywhere, then you have to be able to back that up with some kind of reasoning.

I don't actually as I'm not in a court of law trying to win a case I'm just debating my opinions with other Mumsnetters. I think the action was morally justifiable (if indeed he is a member of Hamas which for now I'm assuming he is going by the current evidence). Legally it may be a different matter but that is not something for me to decide. As I said before, both Israel and Hamas will face investigations after the war and I do think both sides will be found guilty of certain war crimes.

We're talking about the killing of a human being, here, and it's not an opinion to hold lightly that they were justifiably killed. I think it is important, especially outside of a court of law, to have a solid grounding in your own moral beliefs when they pertain to questions such as these; to interrogate them and to understand them.

The point is that this is not just about him: the justification given by Israel for everything that they are doing in Gaza is Hamas, in one way or another. It is of vital importance that any opinion we have about that justification (in any of its various guises) be thorough.

And this is not a matter of opinion in the way that personal taste is a matter of opinion, this is a matter of opinion about whether or not one of the greatest crimes in modern times is occurring or not.

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 16:53

Kakeandkake · 11/08/2025 16:49

You think it was morally justifiable to kill Anas Al Sharif?

Oh well, In that case I think it's morally justifiable to kill Netanyahu the war criminal seeing as we are all just giving our opinions on who we think it is morally ok to kill.

I couldn't care less if you think it's morally justifiable to kill Netanyahu or not.

In fact I assume that many, many people agree with you.

OP posts:
Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 16:57

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 16:53

We're talking about the killing of a human being, here, and it's not an opinion to hold lightly that they were justifiably killed. I think it is important, especially outside of a court of law, to have a solid grounding in your own moral beliefs when they pertain to questions such as these; to interrogate them and to understand them.

The point is that this is not just about him: the justification given by Israel for everything that they are doing in Gaza is Hamas, in one way or another. It is of vital importance that any opinion we have about that justification (in any of its various guises) be thorough.

And this is not a matter of opinion in the way that personal taste is a matter of opinion, this is a matter of opinion about whether or not one of the greatest crimes in modern times is occurring or not.

Oh we've moved from the legal argument to the emotional one have we?

Yes he was a human being. So were all the people murdered on 7/10 that he was happy about according to his comments on telegram.

We may as well stop now, can't see anything useful being added to the discussion.

OP posts:
Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 16:59

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 16:51

You may be right about that but nothing changes the fact (actually its an opinion) that Netanyahu will never allow Hamas to remain in Gaza.

A sensible moderate Israeli government would indeed not seek to subjugate the Palestinian people after the war.

I hope for everyone's sake that the governing body chosen to rule Gaza in the future with their Arab forces are able to keep peace with both sides.

We can both certainly agree that Hamas has no place in the future of any part of the world, Gaza or otherwise. They're right wing extremists, and I hold them in as much contempt as I do Orban, or Litvinenko, or Putin, or Trump's Republican Party, or any other authoritarian, oppressive government.

But there is a clear and available pathway to a solution to the problem of Hamas (which is not just about Hamas itself, but about the brand of terrorism that they represent). Which is to say: Israel complies with the multitude of UN resolutions that require them to uphold e.g. Palestinian right of return, end to breach of CERD (apartheid) in the OPT, and on and on. It's not a fantasy. It could be achieved very simply, if not very easily.

Kakeandkake · 11/08/2025 17:00

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 16:57

Oh we've moved from the legal argument to the emotional one have we?

Yes he was a human being. So were all the people murdered on 7/10 that he was happy about according to his comments on telegram.

We may as well stop now, can't see anything useful being added to the discussion.

You say you are here to debate yet constantly ask people to stop when you are losing the argument.

@Cinnyris makes some very valid points.

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 17:01

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 16:57

Oh we've moved from the legal argument to the emotional one have we?

Yes he was a human being. So were all the people murdered on 7/10 that he was happy about according to his comments on telegram.

We may as well stop now, can't see anything useful being added to the discussion.

Not an emotional argument: an appeal to humanity is not an appeal to emotion.

I believe that it is important to understanding when and why you believe someone may be justifiably killed. It is kind of one of the big questions a person can have, and taking the time to get to a good answer is worthwhile, IMO.

DrPrunesqualer · 11/08/2025 17:07

BelleHathor · 11/08/2025 15:19

Exactly, due to the ongoing occupation Israel does not get to dictate whether Hamas disarms or not.

Armed resistance to illegal occupation is written in International Law and affirmed by several UN resolutions.

Netanyahu and his ilk know this (as do Government lawyers in Europe, America and the Arab states that signed the declaration at the UN recently) that's why they've added it as a condition as they know it will never be agreed to and will lead to an unsolvable impasse.

Also see the armed groups in other countries where Israel currently illegally occupies.

Besides watching the atrocities being committed currently in Syria to the Alawites, Christian and others who disarmed in good faith who would trust an entity such as the IDF who doesn't even pretend to follow International Law or America who bombs countries whilst negotiating.

Some extremely good points here by Belle
and @Cinnyris
Thanks also for the intel on the studies Cinny that you site.

Kakeandkake · 11/08/2025 17:09

DrPrunesqualer · 11/08/2025 17:07

Some extremely good points here by Belle
and @Cinnyris
Thanks also for the intel on the studies Cinny that you site.

Agreed 👍

quantumbutterfly · 11/08/2025 17:21

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 16:36

It will not address the core issue, which is that the type of terrorism perpetrated by Hamas will still be a problem for Israel. For as long as the state of Israel exists in the way that it does, and the Palestinian people are subjugated, Israel will not be free of Hamas and Hamas-like organisations.

From what I see hamas and hamas like organisations are Islamic extremists and owe more of their existence to Iran than to Israel.

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 17:23

Kakeandkake · 11/08/2025 17:00

You say you are here to debate yet constantly ask people to stop when you are losing the argument.

@Cinnyris makes some very valid points.

It’s not that I ask people to stop when I’m losing the argument, I don’t feel I’m even in an argument, just debating something. But I do get tired. I’m debating with one person and several others pop up at the same time asking different questions and expecting responses. I was debating with @Cinnyris and then I get you & @PinkBobby asking different questions. Nothing to say you shouldn’t but It’s tiring trying to keep up sometimes. So maybe you could talk amongst yourselves for a bit, agreeing with each other.

I’m just one person whereas others dip in and out of the debate and no says anything about that. Did you stop posting for a bit because you were “losing the argument”? It’s more likely you just got tired of the debate or had other things to do and you rightly got no judgement for that.

But when I suggest I think it’s time to stop - I’m judged for that too? That’s just being unpleasant to another poster.

OP posts:
Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 17:25

And on that note, I’m out for now.

Expect we’ll talk again @Cinnyris & thank you for debating politely though we obviously disagree on lots of things.

OP posts:
Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 17:29

quantumbutterfly · 11/08/2025 17:21

From what I see hamas and hamas like organisations are Islamic extremists and owe more of their existence to Iran than to Israel.

They are primarily right-wing extremists, but yes, they fold aspects of Islam into their particular brand of extremism. And there are similarities in that sense to other extremist governments which do the same, such as the IR, Taliban etc.

As for who they owe their existence too, it depends what you mean by that. For why they came into existence, there's no question about it, the conditions created by Israel are responsible. For how they have been able to continue in the way that they have, yes, support from Iran has been important in that. But I think you would have a hard time arguing that without Iran, Hamas would not exist (or would have ceased to exist). And it would not be possible by any stretch to argue that without Israel, Hamas would exist.

Best book I've read on Hamas is "Hamas", Milton-Edwards and Farrell. Their commitment to being unbiased can make it a bit of a waffle, but pound for pound, for information of the organisation its better than Hamas: Quest for Power, or Hamas: from resistance to governance.

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 17:30

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 17:25

And on that note, I’m out for now.

Expect we’ll talk again @Cinnyris & thank you for debating politely though we obviously disagree on lots of things.

Have a good rest of your day, @Twiglets1, I don't envy you being the OP on this particular topic. It's one which will keep your hands full!

Kakeandkake · 11/08/2025 17:31

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 17:23

It’s not that I ask people to stop when I’m losing the argument, I don’t feel I’m even in an argument, just debating something. But I do get tired. I’m debating with one person and several others pop up at the same time asking different questions and expecting responses. I was debating with @Cinnyris and then I get you & @PinkBobby asking different questions. Nothing to say you shouldn’t but It’s tiring trying to keep up sometimes. So maybe you could talk amongst yourselves for a bit, agreeing with each other.

I’m just one person whereas others dip in and out of the debate and no says anything about that. Did you stop posting for a bit because you were “losing the argument”? It’s more likely you just got tired of the debate or had other things to do and you rightly got no judgement for that.

But when I suggest I think it’s time to stop - I’m judged for that too? That’s just being unpleasant to another poster.

Nobody is judging you for not posting for awhile- stop twisting things that were not said.

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