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Conflict in the Middle East

Israeli security cabinet expected to approve Gaza takeover plan

604 replies

Twiglets1 · 07/08/2025 10:18

Sky News report that Israel is expected to approve Benjamin Netanyahu's plan for a takeover of Gaza when the security cabinet meets later today.

According to the Times of Israel, the full cabinet is due to convene at 6pm local time, 4pm in the UK.

Israeli media are reporting that the plan could potentially span over five months, and it is likely to be aimed at destroying Hamas and pressuring it to free remaining hostages.

While some ministers have been critical of the plan, reports suggest Netanyahu is likely to secure a majority of support.

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-latest-hostages-famine-aid-hamas-idf-war-palestine-state-live-13398805

Gaza latest: Israeli security cabinet 'expected to approve' Gaza takeover plan - as aid trucks wait at Egyptian border

Israel's full security cabinet is expected to approve Benjamin Netanyahu's Gaza takeover plan when it convenes today, according to Israeli media. Pictures show aid trucks waiting at the border with Egypt amid growing fears about famine. Follow the late...

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-latest-hostages-famine-aid-hamas-idf-war-palestine-state-live-13398805

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
Kakeandkake · 11/08/2025 11:21

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 11:15

Come on - you were the one who posted something from Iran TV yesterday or the day before that was classified by media bias check as low credibility.

Try reading mainstream UK news yourself.

Edited

The issue is that @ConscientiousObserver Posts exclusively from x and is dismissive of anything from MSM that doesn't suit their narrative. I haven't seen you doing that and I see you also post from MSM even if you don't agree.

I can't take anyone seriously who only posts twitter links and thinks the CPJ are 'embarrassing'

Kakeandkake · 11/08/2025 11:21

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 11:11

Well, let us say, as our point of departure, that Anas al-Sharif celebrated the attacks of Oct. 7th while they were ongoing and thus he is a member of Hamas - and I'm going to set to one side for a minute whether or not I dispute that, and whether or not one follows the other.

Is that a death sentence? Are we really saying that writing the words "9 hours and the heroes are still roaming the country killing and capturing... God, God, how great you are" is a justification for killing a person? There is no account of the ethics of war - legal or discursive - under which a person becomes liable for expressing in words support for an act (even ones which are war crimes) within an IAC.

If your account of liability in war is so broad that you would include demonstrations of support as being grounds for liability, then all that any government ever needs to do to kill someone is make a plausible case that they were a supporter of terrorism. (And indeed, here we are, at the point where the wholesale destruction of Gaza finds its justification in the necessity to prevent and punish terrorism - this, as an aside, is an example of the doctrine of Kriegsraison, which was previously laid to rest by the judgements of the Nuremberg trials, but which has seen an operational re-emergence since the second Iraq war)

This is a very dangerous and slippery slope, wherein terrorism (defined, as it can be and is, unilaterally by states - and, as Chomsky notes, terrorism is usually used to describe violence which isn't approved of by the west, e.g. British proscription of PA) can be used as a justification to kill outside of the norms of liability in IAC.

Being a supporter of, or indeed even a member of, a proscribed organisation does not alone confer liability. And the reason for that should be obvious: were war to break out tomorrow between Palestine and the U.K., then the proscription of Palestine Action would allow the U.K. military to kill all of the people, mostly pensioners, who were arrested on Saturday for holding up signs expressing their support for the proscribed organisation.

The important point here is not whether he was a member of Hamas, or - as is being suggested here - spoke in support of the al-Qassam brigades (the militant wing of Hamas, bearing in mind that Hamas is primarily a civil and administrative body, not a military body). The important point is whether being a member of Hamas, or even speaking in support of the al-Qassam brigades, makes killing you allowable or justifiable under the rules of war. Alone, it does not. Not under any account of the ethics of war, legal or discursive.

Yes, three decades of scholarship in counter-insurgency and asymmetrical warfare has laid the groundwork for the killing of non-combatants who are members of terrorist groups. But even within the broadest frameworks, and here I would point to the reductive individualists (e.g. J. McMahan, H. Frowe) who reject the principle of separation (that the rules of war and the rules of the conduct in war are logically separated), mere membership of a group does not confer liability.

Excellent post!

PinkBobby · 11/08/2025 11:21

ConscientiousObserver · 11/08/2025 11:06

Let’s be honest, I’ve seen tonnes of posts on here using X or Instagram posts to back up their ‘facts’, the only time it’s ‘disinformation’ is when it doesn’t back up the pro-Palestinian/pro Hamas narrative.

If it helps, I would ignore those too!

As I’ve mentioned above, X is renowned for its misformation now. It is the worst of the SM platforms and I think any evidence shared on there by random commentators should come under way way more scrutiny than MSM. Blue tick accounts make money with no responsibility to fact check or use proper evidence, with people making huge amounts of money for spreading lies. There was a lot of coverage of this during the American elections if you want to read about it.

I am very open to alternative perspectives but I cannot hold random X commentators as equal to the various NGOs, medics and journalists who are reporting on this conflict (or any other matter). If something ‘breaks’ on social media, I think it is best to wait until it is verified by at least one other source (and not another SM account) before we start considering it in the overall body of evidence. Of course, some things on X are true but I think it should be viewed with such caution now.

ConscientiousObserver · 11/08/2025 11:23

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 11:11

Well, let us say, as our point of departure, that Anas al-Sharif celebrated the attacks of Oct. 7th while they were ongoing and thus he is a member of Hamas - and I'm going to set to one side for a minute whether or not I dispute that, and whether or not one follows the other.

Is that a death sentence? Are we really saying that writing the words "9 hours and the heroes are still roaming the country killing and capturing... God, God, how great you are" is a justification for killing a person? There is no account of the ethics of war - legal or discursive - under which a person becomes liable for expressing in words support for an act (even ones which are war crimes) within an IAC.

If your account of liability in war is so broad that you would include demonstrations of support as being grounds for liability, then all that any government ever needs to do to kill someone is make a plausible case that they were a supporter of terrorism. (And indeed, here we are, at the point where the wholesale destruction of Gaza finds its justification in the necessity to prevent and punish terrorism - this, as an aside, is an example of the doctrine of Kriegsraison, which was previously laid to rest by the judgements of the Nuremberg trials, but which has seen an operational re-emergence since the second Iraq war)

This is a very dangerous and slippery slope, wherein terrorism (defined, as it can be and is, unilaterally by states - and, as Chomsky notes, terrorism is usually used to describe violence which isn't approved of by the west, e.g. British proscription of PA) can be used as a justification to kill outside of the norms of liability in IAC.

Being a supporter of, or indeed even a member of, a proscribed organisation does not alone confer liability. And the reason for that should be obvious: were war to break out tomorrow between Palestine and the U.K., then the proscription of Palestine Action would allow the U.K. military to kill all of the people, mostly pensioners, who were arrested on Saturday for holding up signs expressing their support for the proscribed organisation.

The important point here is not whether he was a member of Hamas, or - as is being suggested here - spoke in support of the al-Qassam brigades (the militant wing of Hamas, bearing in mind that Hamas is primarily a civil and administrative body, not a military body). The important point is whether being a member of Hamas, or even speaking in support of the al-Qassam brigades, makes killing you allowable or justifiable under the rules of war. Alone, it does not. Not under any account of the ethics of war, legal or discursive.

Yes, three decades of scholarship in counter-insurgency and asymmetrical warfare has laid the groundwork for the killing of non-combatants who are members of terrorist groups. But even within the broadest frameworks, and here I would point to the reductive individualists (e.g. J. McMahan, H. Frowe) who reject the principle of separation (that the rules of war and the rules of the conduct in war are logically separated), mere membership of a group does not confer liability.

Al-Sharif was the head of a guided rocket platoon. A legitimate military target.

Should the IDF have lost soldiers to get this scum and his cell to surrender peacefully in your view?

Dangermoo · 11/08/2025 11:27

fffiona · 11/08/2025 11:05

You do realise that Gaza had infrastructure too - universities, schools, hospitals? Not any more.

Take that up with Hamas - the scum that booby tapped and set tunnels around those public places.

PinkBobby · 11/08/2025 11:31

ConscientiousObserver · 11/08/2025 11:23

Al-Sharif was the head of a guided rocket platoon. A legitimate military target.

Should the IDF have lost soldiers to get this scum and his cell to surrender peacefully in your view?

@ConscientiousObserver Is there evidence re the other 4 journalists?

@Dangermoo Hamas set up the human shields. Israel decided to shoot/bomb them. Both sides are accountable for the death and destruction.

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 11:31

Again, setting aside whether or not he was.

Was he acting as the head of a guided rocket platoon when he was asleep in his tent? If the answer is no, then the killing was unlawful.

If you believe that once having acted in a combatant role, you are permanently liable, then you would also have to argue that every single Israeli hostage currently held in Gaza can be lawfully killed, right now, by their captors (being, as they all now are, serving IDF). I do not believe that they can be, and I expect you agree with me on that point. The same principle would apply with Al-Sharif, were your accusation to prove true.

SomeWomanSomewhere · 11/08/2025 11:32

ConscientiousObserver · 11/08/2025 11:23

Al-Sharif was the head of a guided rocket platoon. A legitimate military target.

Should the IDF have lost soldiers to get this scum and his cell to surrender peacefully in your view?

I bet he was Monday!

https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-idf-claims-to-find-list-of-hamas-names-but-it-s-the-days-of-the-week-in-arabic

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 11:32

ConscientiousObserver · 11/08/2025 11:23

Al-Sharif was the head of a guided rocket platoon. A legitimate military target.

Should the IDF have lost soldiers to get this scum and his cell to surrender peacefully in your view?

Again, setting aside whether or not he was.

Was he acting as the head of a guided rocket platoon when he was asleep in his tent? If the answer is no, then the killing was unlawful.

If you believe that once having acted in a combatant role, you are permanently liable, then you would also have to argue that every single Israeli hostage currently held in Gaza can be lawfully killed, right now, by their captors (being, as they all now are, serving IDF). I do not believe that they can be, and I expect you agree with me on that point. The same principle would apply with Al-Sharif, were your accusation to prove true.

ConscientiousObserver · 11/08/2025 11:32

PinkBobby · 11/08/2025 11:21

If it helps, I would ignore those too!

As I’ve mentioned above, X is renowned for its misformation now. It is the worst of the SM platforms and I think any evidence shared on there by random commentators should come under way way more scrutiny than MSM. Blue tick accounts make money with no responsibility to fact check or use proper evidence, with people making huge amounts of money for spreading lies. There was a lot of coverage of this during the American elections if you want to read about it.

I am very open to alternative perspectives but I cannot hold random X commentators as equal to the various NGOs, medics and journalists who are reporting on this conflict (or any other matter). If something ‘breaks’ on social media, I think it is best to wait until it is verified by at least one other source (and not another SM account) before we start considering it in the overall body of evidence. Of course, some things on X are true but I think it should be viewed with such caution now.

That may be your view. I don’t share it.

It doesn’t take much to separate the wheat from the chaff and NGOs, medics and journalists are certainly NOT unbiased.

Another example - MSM, medics, and journalists have repeatedly reported that the IDF have been targeting children in Gaza with snipers and quadcopters. Despite so many reports, and everyone having a phone in Gaza to capture everything that the IDF does, there is not one photo or video that captures even a snippet of this in existence.

Thanks for the advice though.

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 11:35

PinkBobby · 11/08/2025 10:57

@Kakeandkake despite the fact X is known for spreading so much disinformation. I just don’t understand the ability to disregard so many sources and then offer seemingly random X commentators as trustworthy. You can find evidence the earth is flat on X or that the queen was secretly a lizard. In my eyes, it is not somewhere to find the truth.

@Twiglets1 I've been on a few threads now and sadly there are people with the opinion that no one in Gaza is innocent (I don’t think I’ve seen anyone on here say such things though). I will have to check specifically who but there are also members of the Israeli government who appear to share these views.

@PinkBobby the specific claim I was replying to was one that asked isn't everyone a terrorist in Gaza according to some posters, the men, women, children, the dogs and cats, the birds, the insects, they're all Hamas.

We can forget the Israeli government for now because they are not who the poster was talking about, they specifically referenced some posters. Though as an aside I believe a far right Israeli minister did say in the past that there are no innocents in Gaza - however, even he did not go so far as to say they are all terrorists, even the children. Anyway, back to what MN posters may or may not have said.

I'm very confident you will not find any MN posters who said everyone in Gaza is a terrorist, including women & children. In fact, I urge you not to waste your time trying because it's not worth it when it wasn't even your statement but someone else's. But that is up to you, naturally.

OP posts:
fffiona · 11/08/2025 11:37

Dangermoo · 11/08/2025 11:27

Take that up with Hamas - the scum that booby tapped and set tunnels around those public places.

I'm no lover of Hamas and they have certainly never done the best for the Gazan population (let alone the 7/10 attack) but does it not occur to you that the complete absence of any international press (as well as the killing of many Gazan journalists) might create questions about some of the Israeli Government narrative? Why are there still no independent journalists in Gaza? They work in far less safe places than this (although the IDF would obviously need to not target them). I want to know the truth about what is happening in Gaza - and there is only one way for this to happen. And it is telling us volumes that Israel is still not allowing independent journalists access.

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 11:38

ConscientiousObserver · 11/08/2025 11:32

That may be your view. I don’t share it.

It doesn’t take much to separate the wheat from the chaff and NGOs, medics and journalists are certainly NOT unbiased.

Another example - MSM, medics, and journalists have repeatedly reported that the IDF have been targeting children in Gaza with snipers and quadcopters. Despite so many reports, and everyone having a phone in Gaza to capture everything that the IDF does, there is not one photo or video that captures even a snippet of this in existence.

Thanks for the advice though.

What would you consider to be a "photo or video that captures" the sniping of children by IDF soldiers? There are a great many videos of children being shot in Gaza. Do you need the video to include the IDF sniper taking aim and declaring their target?

In war crimes investigation, the testimony of medical personnel is usually one of the primary sources. Here, the volume of testimony is undeniable. The pattern of bullet wounds to children is overwhelmingly compelling: children are being deliberately targeted.

ConscientiousObserver · 11/08/2025 11:39

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 11:32

Again, setting aside whether or not he was.

Was he acting as the head of a guided rocket platoon when he was asleep in his tent? If the answer is no, then the killing was unlawful.

If you believe that once having acted in a combatant role, you are permanently liable, then you would also have to argue that every single Israeli hostage currently held in Gaza can be lawfully killed, right now, by their captors (being, as they all now are, serving IDF). I do not believe that they can be, and I expect you agree with me on that point. The same principle would apply with Al-Sharif, were your accusation to prove true.

I think you need to check your information.

Killing a sleeping combatant is not a war crime, killing prisoners of war is.

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 11:41

ConscientiousObserver · 11/08/2025 11:39

I think you need to check your information.

Killing a sleeping combatant is not a war crime, killing prisoners of war is.

Was he asleep next to his munitions? Was he asleep at his post?

PinkBobby · 11/08/2025 11:42

ConscientiousObserver · 11/08/2025 11:32

That may be your view. I don’t share it.

It doesn’t take much to separate the wheat from the chaff and NGOs, medics and journalists are certainly NOT unbiased.

Another example - MSM, medics, and journalists have repeatedly reported that the IDF have been targeting children in Gaza with snipers and quadcopters. Despite so many reports, and everyone having a phone in Gaza to capture everything that the IDF does, there is not one photo or video that captures even a snippet of this in existence.

Thanks for the advice though.

I’m not saying they are totally unbiased. But they have more responsibility to act with honesty and integrity than random individuals on X, if not just to protect themselves/their integrity as organisations/individuals.

I would assume it’s quite hard to catch sniper attacks on film, especially random ones, as they are invisible threats. And generally speaking, a lot of the footage from Gaza is the aftermath or attacks. In the moment, I’m not sure how many people should be expected to film something that could kill them. What I’ve said could be seen as excuses, I understand if you think that, but I don’t think I would whip out my phone if my child was in danger. Anger and hatred might make me want to share what had happened to them in the aftermath though.

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 11:44

fffiona · 11/08/2025 11:37

I'm no lover of Hamas and they have certainly never done the best for the Gazan population (let alone the 7/10 attack) but does it not occur to you that the complete absence of any international press (as well as the killing of many Gazan journalists) might create questions about some of the Israeli Government narrative? Why are there still no independent journalists in Gaza? They work in far less safe places than this (although the IDF would obviously need to not target them). I want to know the truth about what is happening in Gaza - and there is only one way for this to happen. And it is telling us volumes that Israel is still not allowing independent journalists access.

Edited

Netanyahu did announce on Sunday that he is now allowing foreign journalists into Gaza, under the supervision of the IDF as a safety measure.

I know lots of people will argue that foreign journalists should be allowed to roam freely like chickens in Gaza but they would be targets for Hamas as their reports into mainstream media couldn't be controlled to make sure nothing negative was ever said about Hamas.

OP posts:
Dangermoo · 11/08/2025 11:45

fffiona · 11/08/2025 11:37

I'm no lover of Hamas and they have certainly never done the best for the Gazan population (let alone the 7/10 attack) but does it not occur to you that the complete absence of any international press (as well as the killing of many Gazan journalists) might create questions about some of the Israeli Government narrative? Why are there still no independent journalists in Gaza? They work in far less safe places than this (although the IDF would obviously need to not target them). I want to know the truth about what is happening in Gaza - and there is only one way for this to happen. And it is telling us volumes that Israel is still not allowing independent journalists access.

Edited

BN hopefully is realising that as well as withholding the sick live footage, he's done himself no favours with fighting Hamas propaganda. Press will be controlled by devious Hamas, placing their 'freedom' fighters, amongst the crowds, when not under IDF protection. It's a dangerous place for the press, when it's not Hamas' own plants, doing the reporting. Don't know whether I imagined reading Netanyahu is now turning towards allowing press access, to show the gullible world what's really going on. Of course, if he does, you won't see images of Hamas setting up booby traps and all the other shit the IDF are witness to.

ConscientiousObserver · 11/08/2025 11:48

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 11:41

Was he asleep next to his munitions? Was he asleep at his post?

Did you check that info?

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 11:49

@Dangermoo You didn't imagine it.

In his press statement yesterday, Netanyahu said that foreign journalists will be allowed into Gaza, but they will only be able to do so if they are accompanied by IDF soldiers.

OP posts:
Kakeandkake · 11/08/2025 11:50

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 11:44

Netanyahu did announce on Sunday that he is now allowing foreign journalists into Gaza, under the supervision of the IDF as a safety measure.

I know lots of people will argue that foreign journalists should be allowed to roam freely like chickens in Gaza but they would be targets for Hamas as their reports into mainstream media couldn't be controlled to make sure nothing negative was ever said about Hamas.

Once again that isn't true. MSM were reporting from Gaza at the start of the war and never complained of the above. Have you forgotten about that?

Kakeandkake · 11/08/2025 11:51

The irony that posters are saying journalists are in danger from Hamas whilst ignoring that Israel has killed more journalists in Gaza than any other conflict. Statistically, journalists have alot more to fear from the IDF.

Kakeandkake · 11/08/2025 11:53

Twiglets1 · 11/08/2025 11:44

Netanyahu did announce on Sunday that he is now allowing foreign journalists into Gaza, under the supervision of the IDF as a safety measure.

I know lots of people will argue that foreign journalists should be allowed to roam freely like chickens in Gaza but they would be targets for Hamas as their reports into mainstream media couldn't be controlled to make sure nothing negative was ever said about Hamas.

And it doesn't really matter if people on mumsnet argue about it. Respected and credible journalists from around the world are arguing against it.

fffiona · 11/08/2025 11:53

@dangermoo - and if the IDF control them we won't seem images of civilians being shot while waiting for completely inadequate food aid or starving children, which are well documented by NGOs and others. But presumably anyone who doesn't just get their information from the Israeli Government and the IDF are gullible "useful idiots" rather than first hand observers. I'm not saying Hamas aren't an evil bunch who will try and control the narrative and no-one would like to see them gone more than me, but this in no way excuses the evidence from multiple sources of the actions of the IDF with the active support of the Israeli government. And this needs to be independently documented and people held to account.

Kakeandkake · 11/08/2025 11:53

Cinnyris · 11/08/2025 11:32

Again, setting aside whether or not he was.

Was he acting as the head of a guided rocket platoon when he was asleep in his tent? If the answer is no, then the killing was unlawful.

If you believe that once having acted in a combatant role, you are permanently liable, then you would also have to argue that every single Israeli hostage currently held in Gaza can be lawfully killed, right now, by their captors (being, as they all now are, serving IDF). I do not believe that they can be, and I expect you agree with me on that point. The same principle would apply with Al-Sharif, were your accusation to prove true.

Again - well said.