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Conflict in the Middle East

How is forced starvation allowed?

1000 replies

Tinycatnoise · 23/07/2025 22:28

The top story in the BBC right now is the starvation of Gazans by Israel. The images are horrifying and not dissimilar to seeing those images of concentration camps in Nazi Germany. I cried seeing those and am crying now. I am sure someone will claim antisemitism because of this statement, but anyone looking at these images of starving children would agree.

How is this still going on? I feel like we are watching a genocide take place that the world has turning a blind eye to. The daily shooting by Israel of people trying to get aid too is just barbaric. If nothing is being done to stop this, what is the next horror that will unfold in the world that people will just accept?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce9xkx7vnmxo

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41
SomeWomanSomewhere · 28/07/2025 20:05

Voxon · 28/07/2025 19:58

I think the ICC should be apolitical. If Netanyahu should face trial then so should Vladimir Putin, Bashar al-Assad, George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Joe Biden, Tony Blair, Mohammed bin Salman, Ali Abdullah Saleh, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Omar al-Bashir, Mengistu Haile Mariam, Isaias Afwerki, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Pervez Musharraf, Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintao, Xi Jinping just based on innocent cuvilian deaths. Then if you add in war crimes Narendra Modi, Yoweri Museveni, Paul Kagame, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, Min Aung Hlaing, Rodrigo Duterte, Prabowo Subianto, Hun Sen, Nicolás Maduro, Aleksandar Vučić, anyone left alive in Halas, the entire IRGC command along with the clerics and if we're talking complicity then that list would be too long to write.

See, I generally speaking agree with you on this one - some legalities notwithstanding (realistically: jurisdiction is an issue for some of these and the ICC doesn't deal in domestic situations that aren't covered in international law specifically).

In principle, you are spot on. In practice, specifically Putin and Bashir do have ICC arrest warrants against them.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 20:16

@Voxon, I’ve looked closely at the official UN2720 tracking reports from May and June 2025.

You said:
“There are many reasons why children are starving while food sits there. A key one is that the UN reported that 80% of it is stolen or intercepted.”

When I asked for a link, you pointed to info.un2720.org and cited a figure of 1,404 trucks and 19,000 tonnes intercepted, supposedly amounting to 85% of all UN aid, and claimed the UN blamed “Hamas-affiliated looters.”

I’ve reviewed the official reports, and here’s what they actually show:

  • From May to June, around 1,420 UN aid trucks were delivered into Gaza.
  • Of those, 1,255 trucks (88%) were marked as “looted or self-distributed”- meaning they didn’t reach their intended civilian delivery points.
  • But crucially, the UN does not say that 80% of food was stolen, and they absolutely do not say it was taken specifically by “Hamas-affiliated looters.”
  • The language used is neutral: “looted or self-distributed”, and includes instances where desperate civilians offloaded supplies themselves, often due to the breakdown of distribution infrastructure under siege.

So yes, aid delivery has been severely disrupted, but your claim that “the UN said 80% of food was stolen” is not supported by the source you cited. The UN doesn’t frame it in political terms or assign blame to named groups.

In fact, the UN has not attributed responsibility for the looting to any specific party. The claim that these were “Hamas-affiliated looters” comes from commentators like Chuck Holton or partisan sources, not from any UN document or official.

This is far too serious a humanitarian crisis to misrepresent. Let’s at least stick to what the UN has actually documented.

How is forced starvation allowed?
How is forced starvation allowed?
Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 20:21

Voxon · 28/07/2025 19:58

I think the ICC should be apolitical. If Netanyahu should face trial then so should Vladimir Putin, Bashar al-Assad, George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Joe Biden, Tony Blair, Mohammed bin Salman, Ali Abdullah Saleh, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Omar al-Bashir, Mengistu Haile Mariam, Isaias Afwerki, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Pervez Musharraf, Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintao, Xi Jinping just based on innocent cuvilian deaths. Then if you add in war crimes Narendra Modi, Yoweri Museveni, Paul Kagame, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, Min Aung Hlaing, Rodrigo Duterte, Prabowo Subianto, Hun Sen, Nicolás Maduro, Aleksandar Vučić, anyone left alive in Halas, the entire IRGC command along with the clerics and if we're talking complicity then that list would be too long to write.

Listing dozens of others doesn’t make the case against him go away and it doesn’t answer the original question, which was whether you support him being held accountable.

Also, the original post was about the tragic cycle of grief and radicalisation in Gaza. Would love to hear your thoughts on that part too, rather than just pivoting away from it.

Voxon · 28/07/2025 20:27

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 20:16

@Voxon, I’ve looked closely at the official UN2720 tracking reports from May and June 2025.

You said:
“There are many reasons why children are starving while food sits there. A key one is that the UN reported that 80% of it is stolen or intercepted.”

When I asked for a link, you pointed to info.un2720.org and cited a figure of 1,404 trucks and 19,000 tonnes intercepted, supposedly amounting to 85% of all UN aid, and claimed the UN blamed “Hamas-affiliated looters.”

I’ve reviewed the official reports, and here’s what they actually show:

  • From May to June, around 1,420 UN aid trucks were delivered into Gaza.
  • Of those, 1,255 trucks (88%) were marked as “looted or self-distributed”- meaning they didn’t reach their intended civilian delivery points.
  • But crucially, the UN does not say that 80% of food was stolen, and they absolutely do not say it was taken specifically by “Hamas-affiliated looters.”
  • The language used is neutral: “looted or self-distributed”, and includes instances where desperate civilians offloaded supplies themselves, often due to the breakdown of distribution infrastructure under siege.

So yes, aid delivery has been severely disrupted, but your claim that “the UN said 80% of food was stolen” is not supported by the source you cited. The UN doesn’t frame it in political terms or assign blame to named groups.

In fact, the UN has not attributed responsibility for the looting to any specific party. The claim that these were “Hamas-affiliated looters” comes from commentators like Chuck Holton or partisan sources, not from any UN document or official.

This is far too serious a humanitarian crisis to misrepresent. Let’s at least stick to what the UN has actually documented.

Please go back and read what I posted.

Voxon · 28/07/2025 20:32

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 20:21

Listing dozens of others doesn’t make the case against him go away and it doesn’t answer the original question, which was whether you support him being held accountable.

Also, the original post was about the tragic cycle of grief and radicalisation in Gaza. Would love to hear your thoughts on that part too, rather than just pivoting away from it.

I support him being accountable if everyone else is equally. The ICC isn't a political weapon, and I fear it's actually disgraced itself so wholly that it won't be taken seriously in future.

ICC isn’t going after Israel because it’s the worst. It’s going after Israel because it’s politically expedient for some member states who are politically aligned with the goal of annihilation of Israel, while truly monstrous actors remain untouched.

That makes a mockery of international justice and I fear while the world has its fun, it will ultimately bite them, very hard, on their collective arse.

These institutions should be apolitical. A significant bloc of ICC member states has consistently pushed for investigations targeting Israel, primarily led by countries in the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (such as Jordan, Bangladesh, and Tunisia), along with several members of the Non-Aligned Movement like South Africa, Venezuela, and Bolivia. These states often act politically rather than impartially, despite many having their own questionable human rights records. To put it gently.

The Palestinian Authority, granted ICC membership in 2015, actively submits legal complaints supported by these countries. This politically driven focus on Israel stands in stark contrast to the ICC’s relative silence on far more severe atrocities revealing a troubling double standard.

The system only works if its fair, and that's certainly become a serious issue.

BelleHathor · 28/07/2025 20:36

Kakeandkake · 28/07/2025 19:39

JD Vance has come out and said Israel needs to do more to allow aid into Gaza as children are starving there.

Never thought i would hear these words from him.

The Republican voter base is excellent at calling its representatives. The pictures have had an effect and some influencers have been saying "How can we be pro life and starve those Children" which is resonating. A similar thing happened I'm 1982 after the IDF facilitated the Sabra and Shatilla massacre after invading Lebanon. After video and images of the decapitated bodies were reported, President Reagan had to call the Israeli government and told them to stop it or else . https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/archives/speech/statement-murder-palestinian-refugees-lebanon

Plus Trump’s administration is imploding due to their refusal to release the Epstein files and reveal which foreign intelligence agencies he worked for. The IDF hitting Churches in Palestine also made a lot of MAGA angry, it's self preservation from Vance.

How is forced starvation allowed?
PinkBobby · 28/07/2025 20:42

Voxon · 28/07/2025 19:58

I think the ICC should be apolitical. If Netanyahu should face trial then so should Vladimir Putin, Bashar al-Assad, George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Joe Biden, Tony Blair, Mohammed bin Salman, Ali Abdullah Saleh, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Omar al-Bashir, Mengistu Haile Mariam, Isaias Afwerki, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Pervez Musharraf, Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintao, Xi Jinping just based on innocent cuvilian deaths. Then if you add in war crimes Narendra Modi, Yoweri Museveni, Paul Kagame, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, Min Aung Hlaing, Rodrigo Duterte, Prabowo Subianto, Hun Sen, Nicolás Maduro, Aleksandar Vučić, anyone left alive in Halas, the entire IRGC command along with the clerics and if we're talking complicity then that list would be too long to write.

I agree it should be a-political which is why Netanyahu and Gallant sat beside the head of Hamas’s military wing (until his death). Putin and Bashar are also definitely on there. Blair escaped prosecution thanks to a legal loophole, I believe. The others I need to look into re why they aren’t on there but I don’t disagree with your thinking. But if there is hypocrisy, do we do away with the system and accept that states can do whatever they want in war no matter how many civilians are hurt? That seems like a terrible approach. Surely we should keep pushing for any war criminals to be held accountable. And the most pressing cases are the ones where harm is still being done rather than historical cases (purely from the perspective of being able to save civilians - obviously past victims and their families deserve for historical cases to be dealt with too).

SomeWomanSomewhere · 28/07/2025 21:03

PinkBobby · 28/07/2025 20:42

I agree it should be a-political which is why Netanyahu and Gallant sat beside the head of Hamas’s military wing (until his death). Putin and Bashar are also definitely on there. Blair escaped prosecution thanks to a legal loophole, I believe. The others I need to look into re why they aren’t on there but I don’t disagree with your thinking. But if there is hypocrisy, do we do away with the system and accept that states can do whatever they want in war no matter how many civilians are hurt? That seems like a terrible approach. Surely we should keep pushing for any war criminals to be held accountable. And the most pressing cases are the ones where harm is still being done rather than historical cases (purely from the perspective of being able to save civilians - obviously past victims and their families deserve for historical cases to be dealt with too).

Realistically it should prioritise where it has a) jurisdiction and b) evidence that make successful prosecution likely.

While I would agree with you in theory that "ongoing, can be stopped" would be great, in practice these proceedings take far too long for them to be effective in acute terms.

One possible exception here is the construct of provisional measures (in the ICJ, not ICC), though even there the effectiveness very much hinges on enforceability.

Voxon · 28/07/2025 21:32

PinkBobby · 28/07/2025 20:42

I agree it should be a-political which is why Netanyahu and Gallant sat beside the head of Hamas’s military wing (until his death). Putin and Bashar are also definitely on there. Blair escaped prosecution thanks to a legal loophole, I believe. The others I need to look into re why they aren’t on there but I don’t disagree with your thinking. But if there is hypocrisy, do we do away with the system and accept that states can do whatever they want in war no matter how many civilians are hurt? That seems like a terrible approach. Surely we should keep pushing for any war criminals to be held accountable. And the most pressing cases are the ones where harm is still being done rather than historical cases (purely from the perspective of being able to save civilians - obviously past victims and their families deserve for historical cases to be dealt with too).

States already do whatever they want largely.

Palestine is a member of the ICC lodging frequent complaints about isrsel whilst they quite literally pay their citizens to murder israelis. You really couldn't make it up. While not the same political party they quite literally have hostages they've been keeling for 660 days.

The truly terrible actors don't give a flying fuck about international law and make no pretence that they do. The theory being it's better to have them on the inside that not communicating at all, but in practice it doesn't save people or help anyone IMO.

So what they become in politicsl tools like a gane of risk. Multiple blocs are utterly set on annihilation of Israel, and so they essentially target Israel relentlessly through lawfare.

They do that hand in hand with NGOs that are almost entirely made up of politically anti Israel people. And they're very good at it. Chip, chip, chip, chip and people use it to carry on the false narrative that Israel is somehow a particularly "bad" country - which just isn't what the facts say.

All these institutions are fundamentally political and that's why they don't really work to keep the world safe. They overplayed their hand this time I believe because they went after Israel in a politically motivated attack and they forget politics works two ways.

Putting it simply, if we live in a world where China Pakistan, Iran, Saudi, Yemen etc walk away Scott free while the international justice system goes after a state for defending itself in the way literally every other state on the planet would do, it won't be without consequences.

What happens next time a despot state enters a democratic country and butchers their citizens on live stream like some kind of horror film? Shoots women in their genitals? Rapes them? Murders them whilst raping them? Drags their bodies back over a border while citizens spit on it? Takes hundreds of hostages from their beds?

Because if and when that happens, Britain, France, Germany, America... literally anyone...would go and blow that country off the map. Without hesitation.

After 9/11 they killed almost a MILLION people in retaliatory war, and there was no hostages and no existential threat. They were just big mad. And no matter the personal politics of the individual I can assure you Macron, Starmer, Trump, Biden... none of them want to wake up in a world where they find themselves dragged to the Hague for defending their country.

That aside, people are probably quite naive beyond their little political tribe and they don't realise that the fall of Israel would not come without catastrophic consequences for the middle east and far beyond and for all the talk people talk when they want a cheer from the crowd, they ultimately know that a middle east where Hamas succeeds will not be a peaceful one.

The UN and it's various apartatus of international justice have a lot of questions to answer. We've seen some wild shit. Iran chairing the human rights council? Come on! Their own staff participating in the 7 Oct attacks? Wild. The whole thing has shat it's pants quite publicly IMO.

I say watch this space. Unpleasant as the thought is, Farage will likely be our next PM. The US president...Vance or Rubio maybe. The switch will flip. And I seriously doubt the UN will hold the role it currently does in ten years.

I'm disappointed as all this stuff could have been great, but we were foolish.

Elrae · 28/07/2025 22:06

Madcatdudette · 24/07/2025 02:56

That’s the stupidest thing I’ve read.
11 million lost their lives during the holocaust,
Gaza is fucked because of Hamas.
Seems you lost hope in humanity before you’d blame Gaza’s terrorist government

So are you saying that Israel has no responsibility at all for the suffering in Gaza?

Alexandra2001 · 28/07/2025 22:06

Voxon · 28/07/2025 21:32

States already do whatever they want largely.

Palestine is a member of the ICC lodging frequent complaints about isrsel whilst they quite literally pay their citizens to murder israelis. You really couldn't make it up. While not the same political party they quite literally have hostages they've been keeling for 660 days.

The truly terrible actors don't give a flying fuck about international law and make no pretence that they do. The theory being it's better to have them on the inside that not communicating at all, but in practice it doesn't save people or help anyone IMO.

So what they become in politicsl tools like a gane of risk. Multiple blocs are utterly set on annihilation of Israel, and so they essentially target Israel relentlessly through lawfare.

They do that hand in hand with NGOs that are almost entirely made up of politically anti Israel people. And they're very good at it. Chip, chip, chip, chip and people use it to carry on the false narrative that Israel is somehow a particularly "bad" country - which just isn't what the facts say.

All these institutions are fundamentally political and that's why they don't really work to keep the world safe. They overplayed their hand this time I believe because they went after Israel in a politically motivated attack and they forget politics works two ways.

Putting it simply, if we live in a world where China Pakistan, Iran, Saudi, Yemen etc walk away Scott free while the international justice system goes after a state for defending itself in the way literally every other state on the planet would do, it won't be without consequences.

What happens next time a despot state enters a democratic country and butchers their citizens on live stream like some kind of horror film? Shoots women in their genitals? Rapes them? Murders them whilst raping them? Drags their bodies back over a border while citizens spit on it? Takes hundreds of hostages from their beds?

Because if and when that happens, Britain, France, Germany, America... literally anyone...would go and blow that country off the map. Without hesitation.

After 9/11 they killed almost a MILLION people in retaliatory war, and there was no hostages and no existential threat. They were just big mad. And no matter the personal politics of the individual I can assure you Macron, Starmer, Trump, Biden... none of them want to wake up in a world where they find themselves dragged to the Hague for defending their country.

That aside, people are probably quite naive beyond their little political tribe and they don't realise that the fall of Israel would not come without catastrophic consequences for the middle east and far beyond and for all the talk people talk when they want a cheer from the crowd, they ultimately know that a middle east where Hamas succeeds will not be a peaceful one.

The UN and it's various apartatus of international justice have a lot of questions to answer. We've seen some wild shit. Iran chairing the human rights council? Come on! Their own staff participating in the 7 Oct attacks? Wild. The whole thing has shat it's pants quite publicly IMO.

I say watch this space. Unpleasant as the thought is, Farage will likely be our next PM. The US president...Vance or Rubio maybe. The switch will flip. And I seriously doubt the UN will hold the role it currently does in ten years.

I'm disappointed as all this stuff could have been great, but we were foolish.

You have a very "alternative" view of the World/the UN etc.

Iran never chaired the UN Human rights council, it was a sub forum and very wrong.
No one, on here, is calling for Israel to cease to exist either.

I doubt very much that MSF or the Red Cross are antisemite organisations.

You mention Iraq Yemen China Libya Qatar... well yes they along with the US and Israel voted against the ICC being set up at all.

Not a direct comparison, i accept but the IRA tried with some success, to wipe out the UK Govt, 1400 uk military personal killed in the "troubles"
At no point did they launch an aerial bombardment of Ulster nor bomb Dublin, despite the ROI being a safe haven for the IRA.

Israel has gone too far, i was fully behind Israel initially, even the US knows this and they will have the intel, not Hamas propaganda.

Voxon · 28/07/2025 22:25

Alexandra2001 · 28/07/2025 22:06

You have a very "alternative" view of the World/the UN etc.

Iran never chaired the UN Human rights council, it was a sub forum and very wrong.
No one, on here, is calling for Israel to cease to exist either.

I doubt very much that MSF or the Red Cross are antisemite organisations.

You mention Iraq Yemen China Libya Qatar... well yes they along with the US and Israel voted against the ICC being set up at all.

Not a direct comparison, i accept but the IRA tried with some success, to wipe out the UK Govt, 1400 uk military personal killed in the "troubles"
At no point did they launch an aerial bombardment of Ulster nor bomb Dublin, despite the ROI being a safe haven for the IRA.

Israel has gone too far, i was fully behind Israel initially, even the US knows this and they will have the intel, not Hamas propaganda.

A regime that executes women for protesting their hijab being asked to weigh in on human rights is a parody of itself. That’s the point.

Plenty of NGOs have documented institutional bias or double standards when it comes to Israel. When over 70% of UN Human Rights Council condemnations are about one country, you should worry.

You say “no one wants Israel to cease to exist”, yet every Hamas statement, every chant of “from the river to the sea,” and every attempt to block a Jewish state’s existence at the UN tells another story. I assure you that a huge number of people here want Israel to not exist, whether they say so or not, or whether they use semantics to hide it or not.

On the IRA: you’re comparing a decades-long civil conflict between people of the same country to a terror army infiltrating a sovereign border, mass murdering civilians, and taking hostages. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Hamas responded with rockets, tunnels, and October 7. The situations aren’t remotely comparable.

Israel didn’t start this war. Hamas did. Hamas can end it tomorrow. And everyone dancing around that truth is enabling more civilian suffering, not preventing it. But they carry on doing it day after day...

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 22:33

I did go back and read what you posted - carefully 😇

You wrote:
“According to the UN2720 Monitoring & Tracking Report… 85% of UN aid trucks were intercepted… which the UN describes as either:

  • peacefully by hungry people, or
  • forcefully by armed actors, including Hamas-affiliated looters.”

But the UN report does not use that language.

What the UN2720 actually says is that many trucks were “looted or self-distributed”- and crucially, it does not attribute that to Hamas-affiliated looters or any specific group. That phrase comes from third-party commentary (e.g. Chuck Holton, OSINT social media) not from the UN.

The report is also careful not to conflate looting with theft by militant groups. It explicitly notes the role of lawlessness, hunger, and humanitarian collapse- not some coordinated operation by Hamas.

So yes, aid diversion is real and serious. But your post implied the UN themselves blamed Hamas for 85% of aid losses, which they didn’t. That misrepresents the source.

Misrepresenting UN reports to push a political narrative doesn’t just weaken your argument but actively harms public understanding of a devastating humanitarian crisis. If your point relies on stretching or inventing what the UN said, maybe it’s time to rethink the point.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 22:35

Voxon · 28/07/2025 20:27

Please go back and read what I posted.

I did go back and read what you posted - carefully 😇

You wrote:

“According to the UN2720 Monitoring & Tracking Report… 85% of UN aid trucks were intercepted… which the UN describes as either:

  • peacefully by hungry people, or
  • forcefully by armed actors, including Hamas-affiliated looters.”

But the UN report does not use that language.

What the UN2720 actually says is that many trucks were “looted or self-distributed”- and crucially, it does not attribute that to Hamas-affiliated looters or any specific group. That phrase comes from third-party commentary (e.g. Chuck Holton, OSINT social media) not from the UN.

The report is also careful not to conflate looting with theft by militant groups. It explicitly notes the role of lawlessness, hunger, and humanitarian collapse- not some coordinated operation by Hamas.

So yes, aid diversion is real and serious. But your post implied the UN themselves blamed Hamas for 85% of aid losses, which they didn’t. That misrepresents the source.

Misrepresenting UN reports to push a political narrative doesn’t just weaken your argument but actively harms public understanding of a devastating humanitarian crisis. If your point relies on stretching or inventing what the UN said, maybe it’s time to rethink the point.

PaxAeterna · 28/07/2025 22:39

Plenty of NGOs have documented institutional bias or double standards when it comes to Israel. When over 70% of UN Human Rights Council condemnations are about one country, you should worry.

Why would you dismiss NGOs because of the UN so strange. Let’s take MSF for example, purely because I think they are an extremely effective organisation. Do you genuinely think they are an anti semitic organisation?

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 22:42

Alexandra2001 · 28/07/2025 22:06

You have a very "alternative" view of the World/the UN etc.

Iran never chaired the UN Human rights council, it was a sub forum and very wrong.
No one, on here, is calling for Israel to cease to exist either.

I doubt very much that MSF or the Red Cross are antisemite organisations.

You mention Iraq Yemen China Libya Qatar... well yes they along with the US and Israel voted against the ICC being set up at all.

Not a direct comparison, i accept but the IRA tried with some success, to wipe out the UK Govt, 1400 uk military personal killed in the "troubles"
At no point did they launch an aerial bombardment of Ulster nor bomb Dublin, despite the ROI being a safe haven for the IRA.

Israel has gone too far, i was fully behind Israel initially, even the US knows this and they will have the intel, not Hamas propaganda.

Voxon’s been posting here solidly for days, and it seems like they’re really committed to one particular narrative. At times it feels less like a conversation and more like a message being pushed, which makes open discussion hard.

Voxon · 28/07/2025 23:00

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 22:35

I did go back and read what you posted - carefully 😇

You wrote:

“According to the UN2720 Monitoring & Tracking Report… 85% of UN aid trucks were intercepted… which the UN describes as either:

  • peacefully by hungry people, or
  • forcefully by armed actors, including Hamas-affiliated looters.”

But the UN report does not use that language.

What the UN2720 actually says is that many trucks were “looted or self-distributed”- and crucially, it does not attribute that to Hamas-affiliated looters or any specific group. That phrase comes from third-party commentary (e.g. Chuck Holton, OSINT social media) not from the UN.

The report is also careful not to conflate looting with theft by militant groups. It explicitly notes the role of lawlessness, hunger, and humanitarian collapse- not some coordinated operation by Hamas.

So yes, aid diversion is real and serious. But your post implied the UN themselves blamed Hamas for 85% of aid losses, which they didn’t. That misrepresents the source.

Misrepresenting UN reports to push a political narrative doesn’t just weaken your argument but actively harms public understanding of a devastating humanitarian crisis. If your point relies on stretching or inventing what the UN said, maybe it’s time to rethink the point.

I did not imply in any way that the UN blames hamas for 85% of aid losses. I actually explicitly stated that they included peaceful hungry people and broad "armed groups".

No aid organisation ever names Hamas as policy. UNRWA, WFP, and OCHA all report aid being seized by “armed groups”, and they always only use that wording.

I hope am not sure if you're suggesting the armed groups looting aid don't include Hamas, because that seems very unlikely.

Civilians in Gaza have told journalists (e.g., from Reuters, AP, and Arab-language outlets) that Hamas fighters often take food, fuel, and medicine to supply their own units before allowing any distribution.

Videos on Telegram and other platforms have shown Hamas militants riding on seized aid trucks, with some looted items later appearing on the black market so hopefully it's obvious that "armed groups", as I said, includes Hamas.

So my post was completely accurate.

Voxon · 28/07/2025 23:00

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 22:42

Voxon’s been posting here solidly for days, and it seems like they’re really committed to one particular narrative. At times it feels less like a conversation and more like a message being pushed, which makes open discussion hard.

Hilarious. Self awareness much.

BelleHathor · 28/07/2025 23:02

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 22:33

I did go back and read what you posted - carefully 😇

You wrote:
“According to the UN2720 Monitoring & Tracking Report… 85% of UN aid trucks were intercepted… which the UN describes as either:

  • peacefully by hungry people, or
  • forcefully by armed actors, including Hamas-affiliated looters.”

But the UN report does not use that language.

What the UN2720 actually says is that many trucks were “looted or self-distributed”- and crucially, it does not attribute that to Hamas-affiliated looters or any specific group. That phrase comes from third-party commentary (e.g. Chuck Holton, OSINT social media) not from the UN.

The report is also careful not to conflate looting with theft by militant groups. It explicitly notes the role of lawlessness, hunger, and humanitarian collapse- not some coordinated operation by Hamas.

So yes, aid diversion is real and serious. But your post implied the UN themselves blamed Hamas for 85% of aid losses, which they didn’t. That misrepresents the source.

Misrepresenting UN reports to push a political narrative doesn’t just weaken your argument but actively harms public understanding of a devastating humanitarian crisis. If your point relies on stretching or inventing what the UN said, maybe it’s time to rethink the point.

That's because some terrorists are deemed fine by the Israeli government, like Netanyahu's said "What's wrong with that?" about his ISIS aligned mate Yasser Abu Shabab who Netanyahu admitted to arming and training. It's all smoke and mirrors😉.

https://www.972mag.com/gaza-social-collapse-criminal-gangs/

How Israel is engineering Gaza's social collapse

Empowering criminal gangs and weaponizing aid, Netanyahu seeks to fracture the Strip into rival fiefdoms — allowing only chaos to reign.

https://www.972mag.com/gaza-social-collapse-criminal-gangs/

Voxon · 28/07/2025 23:23

PaxAeterna · 28/07/2025 22:39

Plenty of NGOs have documented institutional bias or double standards when it comes to Israel. When over 70% of UN Human Rights Council condemnations are about one country, you should worry.

Why would you dismiss NGOs because of the UN so strange. Let’s take MSF for example, purely because I think they are an extremely effective organisation. Do you genuinely think they are an anti semitic organisation?

There are many NGOs that are overtly anti Israel. Amnesty. Human Rights Watch. B’Tselem. Addameer.

There are others where they are less overtly but their bias is still observable. Oxfam for example.

Many of these groups are highly active in international legal and media campaigns against Israel.

The EU and even Israel have designated some as linked to terrorism, especially those connected to the PFLP.

NGOs are not always apolitical. They are made up of people, very often left-wing activists who are not politicaly neutral.

That doesn't mean they don't do useful work. Amnesty international for example produces an annual report on human rights abuses in both Israeli and Palestinian territories. I read them cover to cover.

But they only publicise the accusations against israel obsessively, like a mad froth of desperation, and you need to hunt down the report showing the (far, far worse) record on Palestinians themselves.

So you just need to be wary that what you're hearing is often just the bit of the story they want you to hear.

A really good example of how this works in practice is that everyone here knows a lot of information about food shortages in Gaza, but nobody except me knew the UN report on trucks not making it to their destination.

I also doubt anyone knows the UN have refused to deliver aid citing security concerns, and habe said Israel was responsible for ensuring security but then regused to accept that security. Which is essentially the UN creating impossible parameters.

It's not necessarily lying. But it's constant ommission. Constant half-truth. All of it based om trying to demonise Israel.

MSF certainly do great work. But they're not without political bias. They repeatedly used highly charged language in statements about Israel, referring to “Indiscriminate bombing,” “Massacres,” “Targeting civilians,”

That might align with your political views, but not with mine and it's certainly not neutral. Their comms lack context (such as Hamas’ use of human shields or tunnel warfare) and they rarely mention Hamas atrocities or acknowledge Israel’s right to self-defence.

In contrast, MSF has been much more measured in criticism of other conflicts even where those involved are about as bad as it gets - such as Syria, Russia, or Sudan, leading to accusations of selective outrage that i personally agree with.

MSF claims neutrality and humanitarian focus, but it has often issued statements that critics say cross into political advocacy, particularly in conflicts involving Israel and individual staff members have made antisemitic or extremist posts, including praising terrorism, sharing Holocaust inversion tropes and justifying Hamas violence.

Whilst very vocally condemning israel theyve been consistently silent on Hamas’ attacks on 7 October and otherwise, even when those attacks directly led to humanitarian crises MSF was commenting on which to be is astonishing.

This one-sided framing, condemning Israel while not mentioning the actors who initiate the conflict, is a major point of criticism so if people honestly believe their output is neutral that's up to them but I personally see them as highly political and therefore to be taken with due critique.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 23:31

Voxon · 28/07/2025 23:00

I did not imply in any way that the UN blames hamas for 85% of aid losses. I actually explicitly stated that they included peaceful hungry people and broad "armed groups".

No aid organisation ever names Hamas as policy. UNRWA, WFP, and OCHA all report aid being seized by “armed groups”, and they always only use that wording.

I hope am not sure if you're suggesting the armed groups looting aid don't include Hamas, because that seems very unlikely.

Civilians in Gaza have told journalists (e.g., from Reuters, AP, and Arab-language outlets) that Hamas fighters often take food, fuel, and medicine to supply their own units before allowing any distribution.

Videos on Telegram and other platforms have shown Hamas militants riding on seized aid trucks, with some looted items later appearing on the black market so hopefully it's obvious that "armed groups", as I said, includes Hamas.

So my post was completely accurate.

Thanks for clarifying, Voxon.

Just to be accurate: your original post said that the UN reported 85% of aid was “intercepted” and specifically described this as including “Hamas-affiliated looters”. That is a claim of attribution. One that doesn’t appear anywhere in the official UN2720 reports.

You’re now saying: “No aid organisation ever names Hamas as policy.” That’s exactly the point- the UN doesn’t name them. So attributing that figure to “Hamas-affiliated looters” is editorialising, not quoting.

Yes, we can all speculate who the “armed groups” might include and plenty of media do. But that’s a separate conversation. You originally presented the UN as directly naming Hamas as at least partly responsible for the 85% figure, and that’s just not true. The actual report uses neutral language like “self-distributed” and “looted,” without assigning responsibility to any specific group.

If you want to make the case that Hamas is behind some or most of those seizures, then by all means make that argument but it’s misleading to claim it as a “direct admission” from the UN when it isn’t.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 23:36

Voxon · 28/07/2025 23:23

There are many NGOs that are overtly anti Israel. Amnesty. Human Rights Watch. B’Tselem. Addameer.

There are others where they are less overtly but their bias is still observable. Oxfam for example.

Many of these groups are highly active in international legal and media campaigns against Israel.

The EU and even Israel have designated some as linked to terrorism, especially those connected to the PFLP.

NGOs are not always apolitical. They are made up of people, very often left-wing activists who are not politicaly neutral.

That doesn't mean they don't do useful work. Amnesty international for example produces an annual report on human rights abuses in both Israeli and Palestinian territories. I read them cover to cover.

But they only publicise the accusations against israel obsessively, like a mad froth of desperation, and you need to hunt down the report showing the (far, far worse) record on Palestinians themselves.

So you just need to be wary that what you're hearing is often just the bit of the story they want you to hear.

A really good example of how this works in practice is that everyone here knows a lot of information about food shortages in Gaza, but nobody except me knew the UN report on trucks not making it to their destination.

I also doubt anyone knows the UN have refused to deliver aid citing security concerns, and habe said Israel was responsible for ensuring security but then regused to accept that security. Which is essentially the UN creating impossible parameters.

It's not necessarily lying. But it's constant ommission. Constant half-truth. All of it based om trying to demonise Israel.

MSF certainly do great work. But they're not without political bias. They repeatedly used highly charged language in statements about Israel, referring to “Indiscriminate bombing,” “Massacres,” “Targeting civilians,”

That might align with your political views, but not with mine and it's certainly not neutral. Their comms lack context (such as Hamas’ use of human shields or tunnel warfare) and they rarely mention Hamas atrocities or acknowledge Israel’s right to self-defence.

In contrast, MSF has been much more measured in criticism of other conflicts even where those involved are about as bad as it gets - such as Syria, Russia, or Sudan, leading to accusations of selective outrage that i personally agree with.

MSF claims neutrality and humanitarian focus, but it has often issued statements that critics say cross into political advocacy, particularly in conflicts involving Israel and individual staff members have made antisemitic or extremist posts, including praising terrorism, sharing Holocaust inversion tropes and justifying Hamas violence.

Whilst very vocally condemning israel theyve been consistently silent on Hamas’ attacks on 7 October and otherwise, even when those attacks directly led to humanitarian crises MSF was commenting on which to be is astonishing.

This one-sided framing, condemning Israel while not mentioning the actors who initiate the conflict, is a major point of criticism so if people honestly believe their output is neutral that's up to them but I personally see them as highly political and therefore to be taken with due critique.

This is quite a long list of accusations, but it boils down to a familiar pattern: any organisation that documents Israeli actions in Gaza is dismissed as biased or even antisemitic.

But that kind of logic is circular. if every independent body or NGO that raises concerns about Israel is automatically declared politically compromised or “left-wing,” then no one is left to be considered legitimate unless they agree with a very specific narrative. That’s not critical thinking.

MSF, for example, isn’t “silent” on Hamas. They’re a medical NGO- they don’t publish war reports or criminal indictments. Their job is to treat the wounded and speak up when patients, doctors, and hospitals are bombed. That’s not political, that’s humanitarian.

The idea that a surgeon saving a child’s life, then reporting that their hospital was hit by a missile, is “selective outrage” because they didn’t balance it with a line about Hamas’ human shields is quite a stretch. You wouldn’t expect that in Sudan, or Ukraine, or Syria- it’s only ever demanded when the subject is Gaza.

Criticism of a state’s actions doesn’t equal antisemitism. Nor does failing to frame every statement around Hamas’ crimes. That’s not how human rights work and it’s not how neutrality works either.

It’s also telling that when people like you bring up aid not getting through, or hospitals being overwhelmed, the focus always shifts to blame and never to solutions. The aim seems more about undermining the credibility of witnesses than alleviating suffering.

You say these organisations “only show you the bit of the story they want you to hear,” but from where I’m sitting, the same could be said of this whole argument.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 23:38

Also worth pointing out: MSF took exactly the same tone in Ukraine. They documented the bombing of maternity wards, the targeting of ambulances, and the use of cluster munitions and no one said they were “anti-Russian” activists. People understood that reporting on medical harm isn’t political, it’s their job.

What’s changed is the political reaction when the country being named is Israel. Suddenly terms like “massacre” or “targeting civilians” are seen as biased- even when they’re describing what doctors are seeing with their own eyes. It’s not about MSF changing. It’s about which conflict they’re reporting on, and how that gets received.

They’ve operated under bombardment in Syria, South Sudan, Yemen, Ukraine, and Gaza. They’ve lost hundreds of staff. If they speak out, it’s because the medical situation is catastrophic- not because they’re “selectively outraged”.

They’re not a political pressure group. They provide medical care in war zones, and when hospitals are bombed, ambulances hit, or staff are killed, they speak out. That’s not “taking sides”. It’s their legal and ethical obligation under the Geneva Conventions.

Voxon · 28/07/2025 23:40

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 23:31

Thanks for clarifying, Voxon.

Just to be accurate: your original post said that the UN reported 85% of aid was “intercepted” and specifically described this as including “Hamas-affiliated looters”. That is a claim of attribution. One that doesn’t appear anywhere in the official UN2720 reports.

You’re now saying: “No aid organisation ever names Hamas as policy.” That’s exactly the point- the UN doesn’t name them. So attributing that figure to “Hamas-affiliated looters” is editorialising, not quoting.

Yes, we can all speculate who the “armed groups” might include and plenty of media do. But that’s a separate conversation. You originally presented the UN as directly naming Hamas as at least partly responsible for the 85% figure, and that’s just not true. The actual report uses neutral language like “self-distributed” and “looted,” without assigning responsibility to any specific group.

If you want to make the case that Hamas is behind some or most of those seizures, then by all means make that argument but it’s misleading to claim it as a “direct admission” from the UN when it isn’t.

I didn't attribute it to Hamas, i attributed it to "armed actors" including Hamas. Are you seriously pretending it doesn't include Hamas? 🤔 Or is your big gotcha here that the UN can't specifically name them? This is so desperate! We both know it includes Hamas. Of course it bloody does.

Wedonttalkaboutboris · 28/07/2025 23:44

Voxon · 28/07/2025 23:40

I didn't attribute it to Hamas, i attributed it to "armed actors" including Hamas. Are you seriously pretending it doesn't include Hamas? 🤔 Or is your big gotcha here that the UN can't specifically name them? This is so desperate! We both know it includes Hamas. Of course it bloody does.

You did attribute it to “Hamas-affiliated looters” and said that was from the UN. It’s not. The UN report doesn’t name Hamas or any group- it uses neutral terms like “armed actors” and “looting.”

You’re free to argue Hamas is involved, but it’s not a “direct admission” from the UN, and it’s misleading to present it that way. That’s the point.

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