Anti-semitism in the UK

[Lolapusht]

Published yesterday I believe.

Evidence of anti-Semitism in the UK

Not sure if that link will work so…

https://x.com/nicolelampert/status/1944147294917439912?s=61&t=_cKTNp_TyAyzDViEOCJDFQ

Absolutely!

I also have such respect for those who call out antisemitism (and attempt to correct those posters that mean no harm but are misguided) on CITME time and time again and who are way more knowledgeable than me. I particularly admire the way most try so hard to stay polite and achieve it 99% of the time despite extreme provocation.

I won't name names either because of the risk of forgetting someone but please don't hold onto any hateful personal attacks you get in return. It is a game to some on here to score points and hurt people rather than engage in good faith in a very difficult and emotionally charged subject.

Its fucking horrendous and always makes me think about how Muslims were treated after terrorist attacks in NY and London: yes, there were some nutters who attacked random Muslim-looking people, but on the whole everyone rallied up to protect ordinary Muslims in their countries - no matter what they views were - and no one asked them their views, btw, and no one asked them to denounce their religion, or say they dont support radical views, etc. They were simply supported so they could live their life before the terrorist acts took place, as they literally had nothing to do with any of it - which is normal and how it should be.

What really scares me is that people think all Jews are fair game, and they are able to get away with it so easily. If you argue, its always the same - children killed, genocide, etc. I agree, these things are horrible, but what a Jewish kid from Stanford Hill got to do with any of this??? I do see Palestinian support movement as simply antisemitism slightly veiled in fake concern for Palestinian people. It may not be fair but this is the vibe I get - its less so helping Palestinians, more about hating Israel and Jews.

I agree totally.

Thank you for keeping up the information links, I appreciate the detachment with which you do it, you come across as fair minded on a very emotive issue. Cool heads and clear minds are more likely to bring peace, if not to the middle east, then at least to Mumsnet and communities irl.

You have made the point beautifully.

Will the antisemites listen? No, they are so entrenched in their hatred they don't see themselves. Some posters try to calmly point out where they are wrong and shine a light on the hate but at the bottom of it all there are a number of terrorist organisations with the main aim of wiping out Jews. There are so many people in the West and on social media waving them on. Wilfully ignorant people enable Hamas, Hezbollah, The Houthis and keep the conflict going on and on.

@noblegiraffe as I've absorbed more, I agree and see now that T R is jumping into the Anti Semitism problem we have and it could potentially undermine credible discussion with any alignment there.

Do you have any thoughts on Douglas Murray?

I'm very aware that it's a potentially risky and undermining place to bring one group into discussion in support of another - especially when many within both groups are being shat on or pitted potentially on purpose for other means.

I find it difficult to separate the cross into other elements, as when I think about the conflict, how can I not think about an ideology and how that is relevant to future options regarding living side by side and how I believe that feeds into Anti Semitism.

I agree it is so much bigger than that. It is incredibly difficult sometimes to pin down intent without really listening, interviewing, questioning.

Indeed.
There was the Ottoman Empire, the Mughal Empire, the relatively short-lived but very ambitious Japanese Empire...

No- in Orthodox Judaism, we believe you don’t need to be Jewish to earn your place in the World to Come, and you don’t need to be Jewish to have a meaningful and close relationship with Gd, and to live righteously. You just need to keep the 7 Noahide laws. We consider there to be many pathways to becoming close to Gd - even within Judaism there is a lot of different ways of living and observing.

We don’t actively seek to convert others, because we don’t believe that being Jewish makes someone ‘better’ or that they need to be ‘saved’. We believe that the Torah was offered to our ancestors, and we undertook and accepted to keep its commandments. But that doesn’t mean we think only our way is right, or superior, it’s just that keeping the Torah is our role and responsibility. This is where the idea of being the ‘chosen people’ comes from. It’s a role, not a rank. Every nation and people have their own purpose, and the Jewish people have theirs.

Also, converting is considered irreversible; once you’re Jewish you’re committing to taking on the responsibility of keeping the Torah and the 613 (plus more!) commandments. If someone converted and then it became too much, they’d still be Jewish, so would be transgressing the commandments . Converts are discouraged until it can be seen that they really are serious and genuine about their commitment; they need to go in with their eyes wide open. It’s made hard at the outset because it doesn’t get easier after. Plus they are taking on antisemitism - I don’t mean this lightly- historically, a convert would need to understand that joining the people means they would face the same persecution, pogroms, libel etc as everyone else. If someone really is drawn to Judaism, though, and feels it’s right for them, they can convert, and once you’re in you’re in - King David’s great grandmother was Ruth - I.e our royal line descends from a convert.

No - as I understand it, it's more that anyone accepting a convert takes responsibility for their future behaviour in the eyes of the Almighty. Conversion is only accepted (at least by the Ashkenazi Orthodox) if the person is doing it for religious reasons not for eg marriage (iirc the Sephardim are a bit less rigid about this, and the Reform definitely are).

X-post with Ella, who is much better informed than me!

Thank you so much for the explanation. Its such a beautiful approach. Its also, I think, linked to the historical approach of Jews to integrate (but not assimilate). Keep their identity, while respecting the culture of the countries they lived in, without trying to change them. One of the nastiest ironies of antisemitism is the idea that Jews seek world domination when nothing could be further from the truth, it would be unjewish.

Thank you @EllaDisenchanted
Thats really clear and helpful

So true

Thank you!

Yes, I read a book about this.

The author's theory was that in the mind of the 'anti racist' you can't be racist to Jews because people understand racism to be a general prejudice based on perceived inferiority, whereas left-wing antisemitism tends to be the opposite.

Many will deny Jewish is a race, which further prevents them from recognising racism, but then physical characteristics are used to form racist characatures of the Jew with a hooked nose and so on.

Most left wing antisemites think Jews are white, ignoring that many are not, and indeed that 6 million of them were mass exterminated recently based on the theory that they were not white.

As Jews are not perceived to be economically disadvantaged, and are seen as unusually successful and highly represented in power positions, left-wing antisemites find it impossible to recognise their own racism.

Add on to that, antisemitism is more like a conspiracy theory or mass bullying than racial supremacy in left-wing ideology. They don't think Jews are inferior, they just think they're collectively evil based on a wide range of antisemitic propaganda they've consumed.

Thanks for the education @EllaDisenchanted & @EdithStourton these are things I didn’t know & approaches to converting to Judaism that I really respect.

Yes, incredible that he stayed so long! When I saw he had left I was surprised he was still there.

Why might individuals who are the stereotypical saviours and the younger generation support something that is Anti Semitic?

Being Jewish , Judaism and in connection, Israel, does not come up as a talking point in any group or sphere I've ever been in. I've lived in multiple UK places. I don't ever remember hearing or learning anything. So who in population might be ( outside of other religions) and where would/ has that come from?

I think about the protestors, people at Glastonbury chanting. Thoughtless? Unaware? Is it more?

I don't know if there's an undercurrent , what is it? Where has that come from?

Western middle class types have been interviewed across London and there's a downplay continually re 7 October. Even suggesting it was an inevitable revolt against occupation.

Is this part of that view regards 'privilege' and '
'entitled?' Where does that come from?

I think it's a social craze.

The activists groups have been going strong at universities for years, they're everywhere and have a foothold in the student unions, plus a lot of faculty are activist types.

Like many of the Pro P flag flyers who when questioned don't understand what is actually happening?

I feel very unsettled watching and reading more about it. There is a constant and consistent minimisation of Oct 7th, why Israel is clearly defending. The craze is like a virus tbh.

I have watched endless debates by some great and patient Jewish Israeli's. Every time, it's coming out - ( occupation, defence, freedom fighters, Zionism. Oct 7th never acknowledged)

No flexibility of movement.

I think that's right, its all part of the left/academic/arts obsession with colonialism which combines with latent but deep seated historical antisemitism. And lack of knowledge of the history. And the fact that a lot of people don't know any or many Jews. And they like wearing keffiyehs.

Feels like that. Lots of ignorance. Lots of joining in with 'what's in'. There is an obsession at University campus with Pro Pal

And the response is so hysterical, no debate.

Palestine has been an obsession of the left for a long time (see the waving of the Palestinian flag at the Labour Party conference).

But it is totally understandable why young people have become obsessed with it as a cause. Because what Israel is doing in Gaza is horrendous, and what it is doing in the West Bank is indefensible. People are seeing their social media feed filled with destruction and dead children - of course they think this is terrible and want it to stop. It would be the same if their feeds were full of what's happening in Yemen or Sudan. Or Ukraine, and there was that same fever at the beginning of that war to wave the Ukrainian flag and voice support, but that one dropped off the radar as conflicts usually do when they drag on.

This one hasn't dropped off the radar probably because it was already an obsession among the left, so there are people willing to keep pushing it. It has become a cause where if you are on the left, it is part of your identity.

I think it is easy to get people to buy into it when the narrative is kept simple. People are told there is a genocide and it is terrible and Israel need to stop. Why do they need to know about October 7th? Hamas? The constant attacks on Israel and the people who are actively working towards its destruction? The antisemites who hate Israel because it's a Jewish state? Keep it simple, stupid.

I also think that a lot of social media about it is from the US, so people here are picking up the US narrative of a government that is heavily involved and lending a lot of military support. There's little understanding of what minor UK involvement there is because of course, Iran isn't part of the narrative either, nor the fact that Iran is very much our enemy.

I am completely naive to this imagery tbh - West Bank and Gaza as described in your post.

I don't use S.Media. I watch YouTube which has it's own issues. And read books from one perspective ( D.Murray). I therefore have particular algorithms in place now. Another problem of modern society but that's another thread.

I will find time to venture onto X although I will possibly lose my mind. It's helpful to see what other people are seeing.

I feel very confused about Iran. I understand it's Islamic leadership, yet think how all the people feel across the Country having lived under something completely different years ago.