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Conflict in the Middle East

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Israels plan for Gazas future

958 replies

MixedMetals · 07/07/2025 22:40

Defense Minister Israel Katz said Monday that he has instructed the IDF to prepare a plan to establish a "humanitarian city" on the ruins of Rafah, which would eventually house the entire population of the Gaza Strip.

According to Katz, the plan involves moving 600,000 Palestinians, primarily from the al-Muwasi area, into the new zone after security screening. Once inside, residents would not be allowed to leave, the defense minister said.

Katz added that, if conditions permit, construction of the "city" would begin during the 60-day Israel-Hamas cease-fire currently under negotiation.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-07/ty-article/.premium/defense-minister-israel-to-concentrate-all-gaza-population-in-rafah-humanitarian-zone/00000197-e56a-d1ad-ab97-e5ef764e0000

Defense minister: Israel to concentrate all Gaza population in Rafah 'humanitarian' zone

***

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-07-07/ty-article/.premium/defense-minister-israel-to-concentrate-all-gaza-population-in-rafah-humanitarian-zone/00000197-e56a-d1ad-ab97-e5ef764e0000

OP posts:
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38
ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 19:11

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 19:09

Bibi’s new book maybe? Would that be a good benchmark? Bibi. My Story?

I have a list of wonderful books that have broad historical data included, rather than unsubstantiated theories. Please let me know how you get on!

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:13

I simply wasn’t finished writing. What kind of blame scale are you expecting me to produce for you here?

And no one is naming YOU. And I don’t know what you mean by ‘people like you’. So stop centering it around yourself please.

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 19:14

Why is it my government's responsibility to try to stop the brutal war Hamas started and continues day after day?

They wanted to destroy Israel - yes even 8 month old babies like the one you refer to - am I supposed to feel sorry for poor Hamas that they aren't winning?

I won't accept that "we" are responsible. You believe that if you want to hate yourself or the West - I don't.

Madcatdudette · 09/07/2025 19:16

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 18:49

I have given clear reasons why I feel that way, this is what critical thinking is. You can try it now.

Because only you can do critical thinking? I also lived in the middle east for 45 years. I have an Arab husband. I am more than capable of reading up on the situation and forming my own opinions.

So as someone with ties to the Middle East citizen. What are your thoughts on Hamas and how they rule Gaza?
Do you not think that Gaza would stand more of a chance without Hamas rule?

Madcatdudette · 09/07/2025 19:20

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 18:52

There have been demonstrations IN GAZA for exactly this. Before Biden went they were “90% detailed or killed” apparently. Yet here we’re are a year later still killing infants. Who is Hamas now? Where is the list of people who are Hamas? Is it exhaustive? Is it the military arm? The political?

As Hamas were the actual government- is that anyone employed by the government? All the healthcare workers? The teachers and street cleaners?

Who are the current targets for committing terrorism? Netenyahu and the far right have decided this is all of Gaza.

Who are you referring to when you say ‘far right’?
Di you think that Gaza would be better off without a terrorist organisation in charge?

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:21

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 19:09

No, there’s no public money transferred from the UK Treasury to Israel’s war effort. Your taxes have not funded the war.

Incorrect.
We don’t transfer money to the war, no, but DO pay to provide war support.
We pay for trade support and maintenance agreements which support transport of purchased arms.
We pay for military cooperation - intelligence and surveillance via our own naval and airspace capabilities operating for Israel. We all pay for use of international bases for weapons transport.

We train IDF personnel in military exercises.
We allow cargo from the US carrying weapons from our own banned lists to go unchecked.

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 19:24

@itsagreayarea you said We are all responsible for the murder of these children & then reiterated ALL of us so yes, you were blaming me and everyone else who funds this with our taxes and not changing our governments’ policy.

You take collective responsibility if you want - count me out! To me, the responsibility lies firmly with Hamas.

Madcatdudette · 09/07/2025 19:24

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 18:52

I consider Hamas way, way more responsible for this war than myself - like a million billion times more responsible so no, I don't accept that I am responsible for the death of this poor baby born in Hell.

Do you blame Hamas at all or just "our nations"?

I don’t either. To say the rest of the world is culpable while denying the terror Hamas operates is mad.
Hows about stop trying to piss Israel off and sort your own shit out, just like every other government should 🤷‍♀️

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:25

Madcatdudette · 09/07/2025 19:20

Who are you referring to when you say ‘far right’?
Di you think that Gaza would be better off without a terrorist organisation in charge?

Netanyahu and his coalition.

Yes, I do.

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:31

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 19:14

Why is it my government's responsibility to try to stop the brutal war Hamas started and continues day after day?

They wanted to destroy Israel - yes even 8 month old babies like the one you refer to - am I supposed to feel sorry for poor Hamas that they aren't winning?

I won't accept that "we" are responsible. You believe that if you want to hate yourself or the West - I don't.

They wanted to destroy Israel - yes even 8 month old babies like the one you refer to

8 month old babies want to destroy Israeli?
No, they want to be safe, fed and loved.

I feel so sorry for your way of thinking.
I’ve humoured you enough and won’t be replying to you anymore.

Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 19:32

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:25

Netanyahu and his coalition.

Yes, I do.

Oops misread your response!

Apologies.

PaxAeterna · 09/07/2025 19:32

Madcatdudette · 09/07/2025 19:20

Who are you referring to when you say ‘far right’?
Di you think that Gaza would be better off without a terrorist organisation in charge?

Everyone reasonable would agree that Gaza would be better off without Hamas.

But it seems to be misleading that you can destroy Hamas in this way. Especially as there is no plan for a transitional governing body and ultimately a replacement. That is not the plan. The plan is to destroy Gaza and eliminate all the Palestinians by forcefully displacing them.

That’s not my opinion that’s the opinion of the old administration in the US, it echos the words of some in the IDF, it’s what international governments have said. It’s not an extreme view.

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:33

Anonimummy · 09/07/2025 19:32

Oops misread your response!

Apologies.

Edited

That reply is utterly unhinged. No where have I said any of the things you’ve written. I literally said Gaza would be better without Hamas.
Bizarre behaviour.

veiledsentiments · 09/07/2025 19:34

Madcatdudette · 09/07/2025 19:16

So as someone with ties to the Middle East citizen. What are your thoughts on Hamas and how they rule Gaza?
Do you not think that Gaza would stand more of a chance without Hamas rule?

What are Israels plans for a post-Hamas Gaza? Is Hamas just the pretext here?82% of Jewish Israelis support the expulsion of Gazans. If Bibi manages to expel them, he’ll be a hero. If he doesn’t, then who knows.

Twiglets1 · 09/07/2025 19:36

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:31

They wanted to destroy Israel - yes even 8 month old babies like the one you refer to

8 month old babies want to destroy Israeli?
No, they want to be safe, fed and loved.

I feel so sorry for your way of thinking.
I’ve humoured you enough and won’t be replying to you anymore.

I'm glad you won't be replying anymore because I could feel my brain cells dying reading the above post.

To break it down... in the previous sentence I was talking about Hamas.

Then I said "They wanted to destroy Israel" (Hamas!).

And yes, Hamas even wanted to destroy 8 month old babies like the one you refer to.

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 19:39

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:21

Incorrect.
We don’t transfer money to the war, no, but DO pay to provide war support.
We pay for trade support and maintenance agreements which support transport of purchased arms.
We pay for military cooperation - intelligence and surveillance via our own naval and airspace capabilities operating for Israel. We all pay for use of international bases for weapons transport.

We train IDF personnel in military exercises.
We allow cargo from the US carrying weapons from our own banned lists to go unchecked.

You're not entirely wrong, but you're overstating parts and blurring key distinctions. The post I replied to claimed our taxes were paying for the war which is not true,

The UK does not fund Israel’s war - there are no cash transfers, no military aid packages like the US. provides. What we do have is commercial arms trade, where private companies sell parts under government-issued export licences. That’s not “funding” - it’s regulated trade, and the profits go to British firms, not to Israel. It has nothing to do with our taxes.

You're right that military cooperation exists: RAF surveillance flights over Gaza, joint exercises, and possibly intelligence-sharing. That is publicly funded and morally significant. But again, it's not the same as paying for Israel’s bombs or bullets. It is part of the UKs defence also.

As for base usage and cargo, yes - the UK allows U.S. weapons shipments to transit through places like RAF Akrotiri, and doesn’t inspect them. That’s not financial backing either.

So let’s be accurate: we are not paying for Israel’s war, we are profiting from and politically supporting aspects of it. Entirely different.

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:50

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 19:39

You're not entirely wrong, but you're overstating parts and blurring key distinctions. The post I replied to claimed our taxes were paying for the war which is not true,

The UK does not fund Israel’s war - there are no cash transfers, no military aid packages like the US. provides. What we do have is commercial arms trade, where private companies sell parts under government-issued export licences. That’s not “funding” - it’s regulated trade, and the profits go to British firms, not to Israel. It has nothing to do with our taxes.

You're right that military cooperation exists: RAF surveillance flights over Gaza, joint exercises, and possibly intelligence-sharing. That is publicly funded and morally significant. But again, it's not the same as paying for Israel’s bombs or bullets. It is part of the UKs defence also.

As for base usage and cargo, yes - the UK allows U.S. weapons shipments to transit through places like RAF Akrotiri, and doesn’t inspect them. That’s not financial backing either.

So let’s be accurate: we are not paying for Israel’s war, we are profiting from and politically supporting aspects of it. Entirely different.

It is true. These are activities which very specifically support Israel’s war on Gaza, which we directly pay for with our taxes.

I have not stated anywhere anything about transfer of cash to Israel or paying for bombs and bullets, so there is no need for correction or seek accuracy. I know nothing I have said is inaccurate or overstated. But agree that we do profit. To ‘politically support’ is to pay with taxes. We pay for the politics with tax money.

As I said, the Government facilitates and maintains arms trades agreements which are constantly ongoing - so yes, it absolutely 100% uses tax money to do this.

Re: the base, we fund its very existence and operation to be used to transport and facilitate use of arms.

And there was more list and detail, so I have understated them, tbf.

OP posts:
DrPrunesqualer · 09/07/2025 20:28

Thanks @MixedMetals Its progress at least to see more people are calling this ‘plan’ out for what it is.

MissyB1 · 09/07/2025 20:48

MixedMetals · 09/07/2025 20:14

Baroness Helena Kennedy, a KC and director of the International Bar Association’s Human Rights Institute on concentration camps, genocide and UK complicity.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/25300487.bbc-host-takes-issue-expert-israeli-concentration-camps/

Thank goodness some people are strong and brave enough to tell it how it is. Respect to Baroness Kennedy.

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 20:49

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:50

It is true. These are activities which very specifically support Israel’s war on Gaza, which we directly pay for with our taxes.

I have not stated anywhere anything about transfer of cash to Israel or paying for bombs and bullets, so there is no need for correction or seek accuracy. I know nothing I have said is inaccurate or overstated. But agree that we do profit. To ‘politically support’ is to pay with taxes. We pay for the politics with tax money.

As I said, the Government facilitates and maintains arms trades agreements which are constantly ongoing - so yes, it absolutely 100% uses tax money to do this.

Re: the base, we fund its very existence and operation to be used to transport and facilitate use of arms.

And there was more list and detail, so I have understated them, tbf.

Edited

So your argument here is that we use "tax money" for joint military exercises that benefits the UKs security, and we spend money on admin approving trade deals which profit UK businesses?

🙄

PaxAeterna · 09/07/2025 21:01

Anyway some people have veered off topic. At the very least nobody on the thread seems to think humanitarian city is a reflection on the camp that will be built here.

So at least we agree on one thing.

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 21:03

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 20:49

So your argument here is that we use "tax money" for joint military exercises that benefits the UKs security, and we spend money on admin approving trade deals which profit UK businesses?

🙄

No need for the eye roll. I’ve been respectful to you.
I’ve no argument to make, these are stated facts. ‘Joint military exercises’ and ‘admin’ does not describe what I have said, nor does it describe what we collectively fund with our taxes.

I’ll welcome you not to take my word for it.

Jumpupjumphigh · 09/07/2025 21:16

ForgesOfEmpires · 09/07/2025 10:24

You're repeating a narrative that oversimplifies history and lets Hamas off the hook for deliberate choices. Let's take this point by point:

Yes, Israel captured Gaza in 1967 - from Egypt—in a defensive war started checks notes Egypt. Egypt had occupied Gaza for almost 20 years at that time, and by the way had denied Gazans citizenship, free movement or basically any rights, they were treated really poorly actually by Egypt and keep in mind the context here that Egypt were on their side of the conflict!

Then Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai Peninsula, which had been a buffer since the 1956 Suez Crisis and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and Arab forces from Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq massed on Israel’s borders. If that isn't clear enough, Nasser publicly declared intentions to destroy Israel- “Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel,” he said on May 27, 1967.

Really think that over for a minute and ask what YOUR country would do?

What Israel did was Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against Egypt's air force, destroying it on the ground. Jordan and Syria then attacked Israel, and Israel responded. Israel won that war -decisively and in just six days, during which they took control of Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula, which given what I just described is the least of what any country would do in their own defence!

A key point here is that once they did take control of the Sinai Peninsula they did not reciprocate and use it to attack Egypt - they actually just used it as a buffer zone and then handed it back in exchange for peace. So keep in mind every shred of evidence here shows Israel was acting purely in it's own defence with no aggression and their behavior. Israel is one of very few countries in history to do so: hand back land won in a defensive war in exchange for peace. It's rare because most countries keep land they’ve conquered in war, especially when the war was started by the other side.

Gaza at that time had been under Egyptian occupation with severe oppression for decades. It had no government or organised society! But what Israel did do during this "occupation" that they did not choose was allowed Gazans freedom of movement for the first time - they were allowed to visit Israel, schools were build, hospitals, UNRWA were invited in to develop infrastructure for the Gazan people and tens of thousands of Gazans were given jobs in Israel where wages were 5 - 10 times higher.

Under Egyptian control Gaza was neglected, isolated, and impoverished. After Israel took over roads, water systems, electricity, and hospitals were expanded and upgraded.The first modern hospitals, sewage systems, and reliable electricity came under Israeli civil administration.Trade and agriculture increased due to access to Israeli markets and Israeli investment. By the 1980s, Gaza's economy was growing, and unemployment was relatively low. Israel built schools and improved access to education. Infant mortality rates dropped and life expectancy increased - according to World Bank and UN figures at the time.

What Israel is criticised for was Israeli settlements in Gaza which were established after the war. By the early 2000s, there were 21 settlements in Gaza, home to about 9k Israelis, mainly concentrated in an area calong the southern coast. Though they occupied about 20% of the land, much of it was uninhabited sand dunes or farmland. However, the settlements required large military buffer zones and checkpoints because Gazans unfortunately did kill Jews, which inflamed tensions and created friction with the local Palestinian population.

Now you can look at this however you want to. From the Palestinian perspective, they represented land theft and occupation, especially as Gaza's 1.5 million Palestinians faced overcrowding and poverty. From the Israeli side, the settlements were viewed by some as a legitimate return to ancestral land or a necessary security buffer.

The goal was always stated, which was sufficient stability to be created in Gaza for it to safely govern itself and live as a peaceful neighbour to Israel in which Jews could freely live, as they did in Israel, but instead of that happening the first intifada happened.

Terrorism, extremism, and rejection of peace efforts led to closures, security measures, and decline. That increased security measures and began to reduce the freedoms Gazans had previously had. The Intifada led to the Oslo Accords and Gaza underwent significant changes. The Palestinian Authority was established and given civil and internal security control over most of Gaza, marking the first time Palestinians had self-rule in the territory. Israel partially withdrew its military from urban areas but retained control over borders, airspace, and Jewish settlements. but progress..

Then Hamas came on the scene somewhere in here, absolutely fuming that a two-state solution was being discussed and negotiated and demanded instead that Israel be annihilated and they have it all.

Israel then agreed to completely withdraw from Gaza in 2005. I have read the full withdrawal agreement and it was very fair and was done entirely in the hope that Gazans would self govern and make peace. They removed everything, every soldier and every settlement. Not one Israeli remained and Gazans were given a shot at self-governance fully. Movement in and out was restricted but not fully blocked. Israel still controlled borders, airspace, and waters, but no full blockade was in place. I think it's reasonable to assume if things had gone ahead peacefully that Israel would have withdrawn these last security measures, but sadly things went the other way.

People were hopeful (I remember, I was there!) that there would be peace going forward and someone reasonable would be elected to run Gaza, but Hamas was. And to be clear, when they were elected the Gazans knew full well that Hamas charter called for murdering Jews and that their sole political goal was annihilation of Israel through war and terror and they did actually vote for that.

Hamas didn’t just “rise out of desperation.” They published a charter in 1988 calling for the obliteration of Israel and the murder of Jews worldwide, long before the blockade or 2005 withdrawal. And they weren't elected solely because they stood up for Gazans' rights. what right do you think they offered? None! All they promised was murder.

They were elected in 2006 -one time -and haven't allowed another election since. They’ve violently crushed political rivals, used aid to build terror tunnels instead of infrastructure, and used children and civilians as shields and AFAIK until recently they have had pretty widespread support to the extent my understanding is that Abbas has held off arguing for a WB election because until recent events they were pretty certain Hamas would win a WB election and take control of all Palestinian territory.

So everything here is really just disingenuous. the evidence shows very clearly Israel only "occupies" anything to stop it's own citizens being killed. The border is controlled for security reasons, just as Egypt controls its own border with Gaza - and Egypt keeps it sealed for the same reasons Israel does: Hamas is a terror group that has attacked both.

Right now, I think China is occupying Tibet, Russia occupies Crimea, Turkey occupies Cyprus. Not out of self defence because those places are threats, but just because they want territory and control. Being intellectually honest, I do not count it as "occupation" when the goal is simply to stop a terror group from killing you.

But Hamas is certainly occupying and brutalising its own people. They’ve turned a strip of land that could have thrived into a launchpad for war, prioritising martyrdom over statehood. And even after October 7 - a massacre of civilians, rape, torture, and hostage-taking - many still excuse them as the “understandable reaction” of the oppressed through cherry picking parts of the story.

The true story as I see it is that Israel was given independence and the Arab nations were furious about this largely for reasons that relate to religious supremacy and pan-Arab nationalism. And ever since the Palestinian people have been used as pawns in the battle to undermine Israel. That means they have been denied resettlement, denied citizenship, denied a state (Egypt had 20 years to give them one!) and forced to remain eternal refugees and victims so people can keep up the effort to remove Israel from existence.

Had Egypt given the slightest shit about Palestinians they would have build a beautiful Gaza for them with self-rule and prosperity and they would have encouraged them to prosper. They didn't give two shits, and even today they watched as those kids were locked inside a warzone and refused to even let them out when Israel petitioned them for medical assistance for the wounded or sick.

As for Gaza, they have fallen prey to violent religious radicalism, which is a choice - not an inevitability. The Kurds, Tibetans, and millions of oppressed people have pursued justice without massacring civilians. Hamas chose terror, not resistance. And they did so with support from Iran, not for self-determination, but to create a radical Islamist state.

No one is trying to erase the history of Zionism or the suffering of Palestinians. But history is not a justification for terrorism, and pretending that Israel is uniquely guilty for trying to defend its people against a genocidal enemy is to apply a moral standard you wouldn't apply anywhere else.

I appreciate the measured and reasonable tone of your analysis and am certainly not deaf to some of the very valid points that you make.

But surely comparison of Gaza under occupation by Egypt and by Israel ignores one massive difference, which is that Egypt weren't responsible for the Nakba that carved up Palestine in the first place and forced much of the population out of their original homes? How on Earth would you then expect Palestinians (or their supporters in other countries) to have the same attitude toward the two?

Beyond that, regarding whether the uniquely vociferous objection to Israeli occupation is due to antisemitism as others have suggested - that may be partly true. Certainly in a broader sense Arab Palestinians are likely to feel less sense of cultural estrangement from another muslim, Arab country administering them than from a western-backed jewish one, which was specifically formed both to serve western geopolitical interests and to assauge western guilt about their own antisemitic history. But that's surely up to the Palestinians to decide. I wasn't around when they were occupied by Egypt and Jordan so I can't speak for what was said about it, by them or anyone else. If they had less resistance to it than being occupied by Israel that's their business. It doesn't mean they have to acquiesce to being occupied by Israel.

However all this is putting the cart before the horse, because they shouldn't be occupied by Israel in the first place, and it's not their damn duty to check their own motives deeply and earnestly for traces of antisemitism in order to make their colonisers feel better about colonising them. There were jewish and Christian minorities living peacefully alongside the muslim majority in Palestine for centuries before any of this kicked off, and it only became a major political problem once Zionism appeared, aspired to a separatist state to be colonised by people from other countries, and ethnically cleansed the native population from it in order to articifically prop up its identity as majority jewish.

I actually used to have an attitude somewhat like yours, and many times took the Israeli side in debates about the conflict. A combination of reading more of the history, and the sheer scale of inhumane barbarity unleashed by Israel (not just in relation to the war, but in settlements in the west bank etc.) over the last year and a half changed my mind. And meeting Palestinian refugees and learning to see things from their point of view. Yes, there are terror groups among the populations surrounding Israel that want to see it annihilated. Guess what: that's what you get when you use the dominance of western geopolitical power to stick a bunch of people in someone else's land and tell the original owners to fuck off somewhere else. If there's going to be any hope of peace or reconciliation, at some point the parties to the conflict who made that terrible, profoundly racist decision (Israel and the west) are going to have to own up to their responsibility for the consequences of it.

Madcatdudette · 09/07/2025 21:17

itsagreayarea · 09/07/2025 19:25

Netanyahu and his coalition.

Yes, I do.

So why is it we can’t all unite to rid Gaza of Hamas.
i appreciate that people will still be against Israel and that’s fine.
Maybe after Hamas has toppled and Gaza is no longer under their regime the world can look to ending the hostilities once and for all

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