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Conflict in the Middle East

Do people fully support Palestine?

1000 replies

Dawk · 11/02/2025 20:56

I read this article and the scales fell from my eyes a bit: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/11/amid-the-ceasefire-wrangling-how-popular-is-hamas-in-gaza-now

I hadn’t realised that a majority of Gazans want a conservative Islamist state and the complete destruction of Israel to create an Islamic state covering the whole country (from the river to the sea I guess). They also support violence and even the sacrifice of their own lives.

I am appalled by the destruction and loss of life in Gaza, but having read this article I can’t understand why support for Palestine isn’t more caveated. Why are people waving flags and supporting Gaza so unconditionally? When you look at the polling described in the article it seems fairly clear that many/most don’t actually want peace unless it follows the complete destruction of Israel.

For me it’s a bit like supporting Iran. I would never wave the Iranian flag around because of what the country stands for. In this case I am horrified by the scale of destruction wrought by the IDF so support Palestine completely in that respect but I’d never wave the flag or chant the slogans.

If you consider yourself ‘pro-Palestine’, what do you think of the ideology described in the article?

Amid the ceasefire wrangling, how popular is Hamas in Gaza now?

The group still projects a powerful presence but, after all the damage, it will need to divert blame if the truce collapses

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/11/amid-the-ceasefire-wrangling-how-popular-is-hamas-in-gaza-now

OP posts:
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21
Polka83 · 18/02/2025 12:46

@dairydebris

”Yes I agree Israel shouldn't get a free pass. But if you start an urban war you expect urban deaths. And of the 2 groups at war, Hamas and Israel, I find Hamas to be by far the more problematic. Do you agree? That's why I lay the blame at Hamas' door.”

How would one approach this objectively?

By what means would we judge who has acted morally?

Should we expect different level of morality from the army of a developed nation with a range of armoury at their disposal?

Do we need to consider actions such as limiting food, medications etc?

OchaLove · 18/02/2025 12:46

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 12:39

I didn't twist your words, I directly quoted you.

And you still haven't answered any of the questions I asked.

Instead of answering direct questions, you've pivoted to ask another. I'll answer yours here but would really appreciate answers to mine.

1)Yes I agree it is very difficult to win a war against an army made up of terrorists. Many historical examples of this. Does that mean we shouldn't try? I don't think so. I think where we see extreme evil we should try to stamp it out. Don't you?

  1. Yes I agree Israel shouldn't get a free pass. But if you start an urban war you expect urban deaths. And of the 2 groups at war, Hamas and Israel, I find Hamas to be by far the more problematic. Do you agree? That's why I lay the blame at Hamas' door.

Could you answer mine now?

You define Hamas as the only evil and one could argue that evil is sourced from the conditions Palestinians are subjected. So I don't have a clear classification of good and evil here. I see a cycle of evil that feeds each other at the cost of human lives on both sides. I just hope to see a break in the cycle.

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 12:55

OchaLove · 18/02/2025 12:46

You define Hamas as the only evil and one could argue that evil is sourced from the conditions Palestinians are subjected. So I don't have a clear classification of good and evil here. I see a cycle of evil that feeds each other at the cost of human lives on both sides. I just hope to see a break in the cycle.

You don't have a clear idea of good and evil here? So you don't see Hamas as very clearly evil?

You still haven't answered as to why you don't feel the 1948 war was a war of elimination?

I think we'd all like to see a break in the cycle but I don't see how that's possible while Hamas exist and while people have no grasp of the facts of the situation.

Parker231 · 18/02/2025 12:58

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 12:55

You don't have a clear idea of good and evil here? So you don't see Hamas as very clearly evil?

You still haven't answered as to why you don't feel the 1948 war was a war of elimination?

I think we'd all like to see a break in the cycle but I don't see how that's possible while Hamas exist and while people have no grasp of the facts of the situation.

Hamas are evil (as are the IDF) but an Israeli life isn’t worth more than a Palestinian and vice versa

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 13:06

Polka83 · 18/02/2025 12:46

@dairydebris

”Yes I agree Israel shouldn't get a free pass. But if you start an urban war you expect urban deaths. And of the 2 groups at war, Hamas and Israel, I find Hamas to be by far the more problematic. Do you agree? That's why I lay the blame at Hamas' door.”

How would one approach this objectively?

By what means would we judge who has acted morally?

Should we expect different level of morality from the army of a developed nation with a range of armoury at their disposal?

Do we need to consider actions such as limiting food, medications etc?

I agree extremely difficult to approach objectively.

I strongly disagree with the suggestion that we judge Israel by a higher moral standard than we judge Hamas. Both are led by humans. Both should be judged by the same standard. ( I don't know if you were suggesting that, I'm just saying as I feel. I don't think terrorists should get a free pass because they are terrorists. )

I can only share why I judge Hamas to be the more evil. It's because of the utter disregard for the civilians on both sides that they show. You might say the IDF showed disregard for the Palestinian civilians. I'd partly agree and say they showed a token respect only. But the IDF was defending Israel, not Gaza. I also judge that the level of torture and sheer cruelty to civilians shown by Hamas is worse than that of Israel. I'd argue that Israel can get rid of Bibi by democratic process, Hamas does not show the same respect to its own. That's it in a nutshell.

Others may judge that they find Israel the more evil. But I find it very difficult to sympathize when that decision is built on lies and misunderstandings and double standards.

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 13:07

Parker231 · 18/02/2025 12:58

Hamas are evil (as are the IDF) but an Israeli life isn’t worth more than a Palestinian and vice versa

Edited

I've never ever heard anyone argue otherwise.

OchaLove · 18/02/2025 13:15

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 07:58

This is about the six day war I believe? What about the 1948 war when the Secretary General said, 'This war, will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongol massacres and the Crusades'

How do you fit that with your beliefs that they didn't oppose the idea of a Jewish state?

https://www.meforum.org/middle-east-quarterly/azzam-genocide-threat

I'm learning the history of the region lately. I don't have established opinions but I'm reading to learn. But in general I think there is no coalition between Arab states, or Muslim countries. As someone originally from Turkey, I can safely say Turkey's assumed enemies are more aligned with Israel's enemies such as (Assad's) Syria or Iran because of sect differences or historical reasons. Having said that, I am strongly against attacking another country to make regime changes. The reason I'm saying that, defenders of Israel on this thread (or in other social media channels) keep referencing to huge number of Arabs in the region or many Muslim countries while portraying Israel as singled out against them as if they are all in agreement. In practice, this is far from reality.

Regarding, your specific question about 1948 war, I'll quote excerpt from the same book, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy (John Mearsheimer, Stephen Walt) :

"While there is no question that Israel faced serious threats in its early years, the Arabs were not attempting to destroy Israel in any of those three wars. This is not because the Arabs were happy about the presence of a Jewish state in their midst—they clearly were not—but rather because they have never had the capability to win a war against Israel, much less defeat it decisively. There is no question that some Arab leaders talked about “driving the Jews into the Sea” during the 1948 war, but this was largely rhetoric designed to appease their publics. In fact, the Arab leaders were mainly concerned with gaining territory for themselves at the expense of the Palestinians, one of the many occasions when Arab governments put their own interests ahead of the Palestinians’welfare. Morris, for example, writes: What ensued, once Israel declared its independence on 14 May 1948 and the Arab states invaded on 15 May, was “a general land grab,” with everyone—Israel, Transjordan, Syria, Egypt, and even Lebanon—bent on preventing the birth of a Palestinian Arab state and carving out chunks of Palestine for themselves. Contrary to the old historiography, Abdullah’s [king of Transjordan] invasion of eastern Palestine was clearly designed to conquer territory for his kingdom—at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs—rather than to destroy the Jewish state. Indeed, the Arab Legion stuck meticulously, throughout the war, to its non-aggressive stance vis-à-vis the Yishuv and the Jewish state’s territory … It is not at all clear that Abdullah and Glubb [the British general who commanded Transjordan’s Arab Legion] would have been happy to see the collapse in May 1948 of the fledgling Jewish republic. Certainly Abdullah was far more troubled by the prospects of the emergence of a Palestinian Arab state and of an expanded Syria and an expanded Egypt on his frontiers than by the emergence of a small Jewish state.19 And Abdullah, as Morris notes, was the only Arab leader who “committed the full weight” of his military power to attacking Israel, “indicating either inefficiency or, perhaps, a less than wholehearted seriousness about the declared aim of driving the Jews into the sea.” Shlomo Ben-Ami, a noted historian and a former Israeli foreign minister, has a similar view of Arab goals in the 1948 war: “Ill prepared and poorly co-ordinated, the Arab armies were dragged into the war by popular pressure in their home states, and because their leaders each had his own agenda of territorial expansion. Securing the establishment of a Palestinian state … was less of a motive for the Arab leaders who sent their armies to Palestine than establishing their own territorial claims or thwarting those of their rivals"

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 13:28

OchaLove · 18/02/2025 13:15

I'm learning the history of the region lately. I don't have established opinions but I'm reading to learn. But in general I think there is no coalition between Arab states, or Muslim countries. As someone originally from Turkey, I can safely say Turkey's assumed enemies are more aligned with Israel's enemies such as (Assad's) Syria or Iran because of sect differences or historical reasons. Having said that, I am strongly against attacking another country to make regime changes. The reason I'm saying that, defenders of Israel on this thread (or in other social media channels) keep referencing to huge number of Arabs in the region or many Muslim countries while portraying Israel as singled out against them as if they are all in agreement. In practice, this is far from reality.

Regarding, your specific question about 1948 war, I'll quote excerpt from the same book, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy (John Mearsheimer, Stephen Walt) :

"While there is no question that Israel faced serious threats in its early years, the Arabs were not attempting to destroy Israel in any of those three wars. This is not because the Arabs were happy about the presence of a Jewish state in their midst—they clearly were not—but rather because they have never had the capability to win a war against Israel, much less defeat it decisively. There is no question that some Arab leaders talked about “driving the Jews into the Sea” during the 1948 war, but this was largely rhetoric designed to appease their publics. In fact, the Arab leaders were mainly concerned with gaining territory for themselves at the expense of the Palestinians, one of the many occasions when Arab governments put their own interests ahead of the Palestinians’welfare. Morris, for example, writes: What ensued, once Israel declared its independence on 14 May 1948 and the Arab states invaded on 15 May, was “a general land grab,” with everyone—Israel, Transjordan, Syria, Egypt, and even Lebanon—bent on preventing the birth of a Palestinian Arab state and carving out chunks of Palestine for themselves. Contrary to the old historiography, Abdullah’s [king of Transjordan] invasion of eastern Palestine was clearly designed to conquer territory for his kingdom—at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs—rather than to destroy the Jewish state. Indeed, the Arab Legion stuck meticulously, throughout the war, to its non-aggressive stance vis-à-vis the Yishuv and the Jewish state’s territory … It is not at all clear that Abdullah and Glubb [the British general who commanded Transjordan’s Arab Legion] would have been happy to see the collapse in May 1948 of the fledgling Jewish republic. Certainly Abdullah was far more troubled by the prospects of the emergence of a Palestinian Arab state and of an expanded Syria and an expanded Egypt on his frontiers than by the emergence of a small Jewish state.19 And Abdullah, as Morris notes, was the only Arab leader who “committed the full weight” of his military power to attacking Israel, “indicating either inefficiency or, perhaps, a less than wholehearted seriousness about the declared aim of driving the Jews into the sea.” Shlomo Ben-Ami, a noted historian and a former Israeli foreign minister, has a similar view of Arab goals in the 1948 war: “Ill prepared and poorly co-ordinated, the Arab armies were dragged into the war by popular pressure in their home states, and because their leaders each had his own agenda of territorial expansion. Securing the establishment of a Palestinian state … was less of a motive for the Arab leaders who sent their armies to Palestine than establishing their own territorial claims or thwarting those of their rivals"

Thankyou. This is interesting. I've never heard this viewpoint expressed this way before. So this read of it was that the Arab declaration was more posturing and pandering to national sentiments rather than a genuine attempt to wipe Israel out? Did I get that right?
I've ordered the book on my Kindle.

OchaLove · 18/02/2025 13:29

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 13:28

Thankyou. This is interesting. I've never heard this viewpoint expressed this way before. So this read of it was that the Arab declaration was more posturing and pandering to national sentiments rather than a genuine attempt to wipe Israel out? Did I get that right?
I've ordered the book on my Kindle.

That's my understanding as well.

thinkfast · 18/02/2025 13:56

Sab06 · 12/02/2025 05:23

I would truly love to see Israel come and occupy the UK, take our farmers lands, our beautiful homes and of course our children’s lives!! Chase us! I think any one of us would line up with any resistance to get what is rightfully ours!! so yes…. Free Palestine!!

Thats a ridiculous analogy. Don't be so simplistic.

thinkfast · 18/02/2025 14:02

TattedBarley · 12/02/2025 08:59

I do not stand with either Hamas or Israel. But anybody with a heart must feel something at the sight of Palestinian children being shot point blank, mothers and fathers crying over the broken bodies of their children, hospitals and schools and homes destroyed. It strikes me that we don’t see the same images coming from Israel.

Yes, it's disgusting that the UK media hardly ever shows the numerous attacks in the other direction.

SleekBlackCat · 18/02/2025 14:18

OchaLove · 18/02/2025 12:46

You define Hamas as the only evil and one could argue that evil is sourced from the conditions Palestinians are subjected. So I don't have a clear classification of good and evil here. I see a cycle of evil that feeds each other at the cost of human lives on both sides. I just hope to see a break in the cycle.

I couldn’t take anyone seriously who made a comment like this. Then goes onto say they ‘don’t have established opinions’.

You clearly classify cutting women’s breasts off and playing with them while gang raping her. tying children and their parents together with wire and burning them alive, torturing a family by cutting off their body parts while they are sitting round a dining table. kidnapping babies, etc, as evil?

You don’t think Israel’s stance may be borne out of years of wars started against them, terrorist attacks hijacking planes, blowing up buses, pizza parlours, shopping malls, murdering their whole Olympic team, murdering whole families including babies in their beds, shooting up school buses, disembowelling people and pulling out their innards for making a wrong turn etc, etc?

Now you’re saying the 1948 war wasn’t really to wipe out Israel.

Sounds like you’re pretty one sided to me.

It’s well known that if Israel wasn’t there, the Arabs would be fighting each other. Israel is just a distraction. Sunni vs Shia.

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 14:24

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 13:28

Thankyou. This is interesting. I've never heard this viewpoint expressed this way before. So this read of it was that the Arab declaration was more posturing and pandering to national sentiments rather than a genuine attempt to wipe Israel out? Did I get that right?
I've ordered the book on my Kindle.

I've just gone down quite the rabbithole with this! I read the London Review of Books essay and had some doubts about the views being expressed. Apparently the book is not without controversy so just wanted to put this out here too. In fact Abraham H. Foxman has written a rebuttal, The Deadliest Lies. Hopefully everyone who reads one can read both as interpretations may differ.

Polka83 · 18/02/2025 14:48

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 13:06

I agree extremely difficult to approach objectively.

I strongly disagree with the suggestion that we judge Israel by a higher moral standard than we judge Hamas. Both are led by humans. Both should be judged by the same standard. ( I don't know if you were suggesting that, I'm just saying as I feel. I don't think terrorists should get a free pass because they are terrorists. )

I can only share why I judge Hamas to be the more evil. It's because of the utter disregard for the civilians on both sides that they show. You might say the IDF showed disregard for the Palestinian civilians. I'd partly agree and say they showed a token respect only. But the IDF was defending Israel, not Gaza. I also judge that the level of torture and sheer cruelty to civilians shown by Hamas is worse than that of Israel. I'd argue that Israel can get rid of Bibi by democratic process, Hamas does not show the same respect to its own. That's it in a nutshell.

Others may judge that they find Israel the more evil. But I find it very difficult to sympathize when that decision is built on lies and misunderstandings and double standards.

Thank you

I don’t anyone was proposing giving Hamas a free pass. I can only see concerns being expressed for innocent Palestinians.

So a measure of who has acted appropriately comes down to the reason they are fighting. You imply that Israel’s disregard for Palestinian lives is justified by it having to defend itself. Would this suggest any powerful nation is able to justify any actions it chooses to take to defend its population with disregard for proportionality? Does this suggest that Israel should disregard international law?

There can be no justification for 7/10, but I would say that Palestinians have reason to be aggrieved by their treatment by the Israelis. There have been more innocent Palestinians killed over the decades than Israelis. This does not give carte blanche to Palestinians.

I can imagine the cruelty Hamas shows towards Palestinians. But frankly - you can’t really use that as a justification of how Israel acts towards Palestinians. Hamas treats then like s* so we will too!

The fact that Israel chooses it democratic leaders makes them complicit! Not sure this makes Israeli action more justified?

Should we not want to hold a Democratic country to a higher standard than a terrorist organisation? If not, we are in a situation of deciding which is the lesser of 2 evils and the above poster was right. Hamas are evil and so are the IDF in the hands of the current Israeli government.

Please do point out misunderstandings.

Scirocco · 18/02/2025 15:27

thinkfast · 18/02/2025 14:02

Yes, it's disgusting that the UK media hardly ever shows the numerous attacks in the other direction.

With the notable exception of the October 7th atrocities, there hasn't been anywhere near the same level of devastation in Israel as there has been in Palestine. While I do think the trauma and societal impact of the rocket attacks on Israel should not be ignored, there is a difference between those and the devastation in Palestine.

I have people I care about in both Israel and Palestine. 100% of the people I know in Israel who were alive on 8th October are still alive. The figure for the people I know in Palestine is significantly lower, and a number of those who are still alive have life-changing consequences to bear. A significant contributing factor to this has been the disregard for civilian lives, 'rules of war' and international humanitarian law by the IDF and Israeli government.

thinkfast · 18/02/2025 15:32

@Scirocco so you think the reporting of these events by the UK media is fair and balanced then? I certainly don't.

Liv999 · 18/02/2025 15:47

Polka83 · 18/02/2025 14:48

Thank you

I don’t anyone was proposing giving Hamas a free pass. I can only see concerns being expressed for innocent Palestinians.

So a measure of who has acted appropriately comes down to the reason they are fighting. You imply that Israel’s disregard for Palestinian lives is justified by it having to defend itself. Would this suggest any powerful nation is able to justify any actions it chooses to take to defend its population with disregard for proportionality? Does this suggest that Israel should disregard international law?

There can be no justification for 7/10, but I would say that Palestinians have reason to be aggrieved by their treatment by the Israelis. There have been more innocent Palestinians killed over the decades than Israelis. This does not give carte blanche to Palestinians.

I can imagine the cruelty Hamas shows towards Palestinians. But frankly - you can’t really use that as a justification of how Israel acts towards Palestinians. Hamas treats then like s* so we will too!

The fact that Israel chooses it democratic leaders makes them complicit! Not sure this makes Israeli action more justified?

Should we not want to hold a Democratic country to a higher standard than a terrorist organisation? If not, we are in a situation of deciding which is the lesser of 2 evils and the above poster was right. Hamas are evil and so are the IDF in the hands of the current Israeli government.

Please do point out misunderstandings.

Well said 👏

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 16:07

I'm not really sure what your point is and what you are asking me? Perhaps you could lay out your position for whether or not you fully support Palestine given the article linked, showing that over half of Palestinians asked said they don't want Israel to exist?

In answer to your last question, I find your assertion that you don't think Hamas should get a free pass to be in contradiction to your later paragraph saying we should hold a democratic government to a higher standard than a terrorist one. I strongly disagree. Both are governments with a responsibility to care for their populations. Both are human. People seem to repeatedly say, oh, we can't expect Hamas to behave, they are terrorists. They then go on to mention all the wrong doings of the Israeli government. It seems absolutely crystal clear to me that Hamas are by far the worst of the 2. Why should we gloss over the awfulness of Hamas and only concentrate on the awfulness of Israel? I see it time after time. We had a poster above calling Hamas' actions 'irresponsible'! It becomes increasingly difficult for me to understand how this attitude can come from anything other than hatred of Israel.

Scirocco · 18/02/2025 16:30

thinkfast · 18/02/2025 15:32

@Scirocco so you think the reporting of these events by the UK media is fair and balanced then? I certainly don't.

I think the reporting is uneven and patchy, with a lack of robust coverage and analysis of many aspects.

Polka83 · 18/02/2025 16:34

I don’t mean to suggest we give Hamas a free pass, but to clarify - I did expect a democratic ally of the West, which readily takes the benefits and prestige this comes with, to adhere to international law.

I fully support Palestinians in that I believe their lives are equal to those of Israelis. We wouldn’t want Israeli lives to mean less due to their political views?

SleekBlackCat · 18/02/2025 16:40

Scirocco · 18/02/2025 15:27

With the notable exception of the October 7th atrocities, there hasn't been anywhere near the same level of devastation in Israel as there has been in Palestine. While I do think the trauma and societal impact of the rocket attacks on Israel should not be ignored, there is a difference between those and the devastation in Palestine.

I have people I care about in both Israel and Palestine. 100% of the people I know in Israel who were alive on 8th October are still alive. The figure for the people I know in Palestine is significantly lower, and a number of those who are still alive have life-changing consequences to bear. A significant contributing factor to this has been the disregard for civilian lives, 'rules of war' and international humanitarian law by the IDF and Israeli government.

Doesn’t it say a lot though that Israel even needed the iron dome? It’s had it for 14 years now. No other state or country has one or needs one. They had to develop one entirely due to the attacks on their citizens. Imagine the devastation and deaths in Israel if they hadn’t!

Do you think the security forces and checkpoints in the West Bank and the blockade wall from Gaza are just there for the hell of it? Imagine the Israeli deaths if nothing was there. Egypt has a blockade wall as well btw.

The costs of having all this protection is massive.

Oct 7th showed what could be done and the appetite for it, and there likely would have been many attacks of that magnitude many times over if Israel’s protections hadn’t been in place.

It’s not only the Palestinians that Israel needs protection from. Hezbollah was attacking Israel before Oct 7th.

Gaza was not devastated before Oct 7th. It looked like it was quite a beautiful place. Most of the destruction AFTER its government deliberately provoked a war was due to Israel having to destroy much of the tunnel networks built to harbour the terrorists and their supply chain.

Do you seriously not think that the death toll and destruction would have been different if they hadn’t had a strategy of using civilian areas and civilians themselves as human shields, and had built bomb shelters instead of tunnels, or even hadn’t started a war knowing full well they had provided no places of safety for their citizens and in fact actively wanted as many to be killed as possible so the horror could be live-streamed on SM to incite global hatred of Israel?

It is absolutely horrific and I don’t think there is any other government who would do that to their own people.

I’m sorry you have lost people and people you love have been injured.

I don’t think comparisons with Israel who actually protect their citizens is in anyway a valid argument on the differences in death toll in this conflict.

BaMamma · 18/02/2025 16:45

@SleekBlackCat Exactly

OpheliaWasntMad · 18/02/2025 18:29

Parker231 · 18/02/2025 12:58

Hamas are evil (as are the IDF) but an Israeli life isn’t worth more than a Palestinian and vice versa

Edited

All lives are equally precious of course.
Israeli lives aren’t worth more than Palestinian lives but unlike the Palestinians, the Israelis have a government who accepts its responsibility to protect its own citizens.

Parker231 · 18/02/2025 18:34

OpheliaWasntMad · 18/02/2025 18:29

All lives are equally precious of course.
Israeli lives aren’t worth more than Palestinian lives but unlike the Palestinians, the Israelis have a government who accepts its responsibility to protect its own citizens.

Not sure I’d feel very supportive of my government if they were committing war crimes and holding my neighbours in the world’s largest outdoor prison.

dairydebris · 18/02/2025 18:44

Parker231 · 18/02/2025 18:34

Not sure I’d feel very supportive of my government if they were committing war crimes and holding my neighbours in the world’s largest outdoor prison.

You might feel differently if the people they were containing in your 'open air prison' would otherwise be firing rockets at your home, suicide bombing your childs school bus, raping your daughter, murdering your neighbors at a party and kidnapping your children don't you think?

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