Page 13 | Do people fully support Palestine?

Dawk · 2025-02-11T20:56:31+00:00

I read this article and the scales fell from my eyes a bit: [[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/11/amid-the-ceasefire-wrangling-how-popular-is-hamas-in-gaza-now https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/11/amid-the-ceasefire-wrangling-how-popular-is-hamas-in-gaza-now]] I hadn’t realised that a majority of Gazans want a conservative Islamist state and the complete destruction of Israel to create an Islamic state covering the whole country (from the river to the sea I guess). They also support violence and even the sacrifice of their own lives. I am appalled by the destruction and loss of life in Gaza, but having read this article I can’t understand why support for Palestine isn’t more caveated. Why are people waving flags and supporting Gaza so unconditionally? When you look at the polling described in the article it seems fairly clear that many/most don’t actually want peace unless it follows the complete destruction of Israel. For me it’s a bit like supporting Iran. I would never wave the Iranian flag around because of what the country stands for. In this case I am horrified by the scale of destruction wrought by the IDF so support Palestine completely in that respect but I’d never wave the flag or chant the slogans. If you consider yourself ‘pro-Palestine’, what do you think of the ideology described in the article?

AcquadiP · 12/02/2025 23:34

mouthpipette · 12/02/2025 23:30

@AcquadiP
I do believe that the eradication of Israel (and the Jewish people) is the primary objective of Hamas

It may be their objective, but it's never going to happen.

I agree.

BaMamma · 12/02/2025 23:37

AcquadiP · 12/02/2025 23:27

Historically, this is such a complicated situation, with rights and wrongs on both sides and no easy solution in sight, that I find it hard to do anything other than sit on the fence. The content of the Guardian's article doesn't surprise me (other than it's more balanced than usual.) I do believe that the eradication of Israel (and the Jewish people) is the primary objective of Hamas and October 7th really was poking the metaphorical bear, a bear with infinite resources and an iron will to fight back.
A pro-Palestine supporter recently asked me for my take on things and left me gobsmacked when she said that Hamas weren't really involved, that was 'social media talk.' She looked genuinely surprised when I told her that all the major news channels were naming Hamas. It's difficult to know where she is getting her information from but she has a very black and white view of the situation: Palestine good, Israel bad. I could see that the discussion was going to be pointless and frustrating so I defaulted to fence-sitting.
The supporters I find hilarious are the 'Queers for Palestine'. Currently, there aren't enough tall buildings left in Gaza to throw them all off but when they rebuild they'd probably be lucky to last a day.
How can they not know this?

It's baffling isn't it? There seems to be a strong correlation between people who believe transwomen are women and who believe Hamas are freedom fighters.

Lalaloveya · 12/02/2025 23:37

Dawk · 12/02/2025 23:20

I'm not using my own personal experience to try to understand this. My personal experience is irrelevant because I am not Palestinian or Israeli.

As I said, yes of course they want their own state, but if their vision of their own state is the whole of Israel then they may not support an end to violence if they are offered less than that. It's very clear to me just looking at human behaviour throughout history that people don't want peace at any cost. Humans have always been willing to wage war and die for what they believe in. In this case, the Palestinian vision of 'freedom' (from the river to the sea) may conflict with and trump any desire for peace.

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Well let's be real, they're not going to be offered anything, are they. So there is nothing for those who don't think they deserve their own state or safety or security to worry about in that regard. Israel would have them all removed before they'd let them have their own state, of any description.

I didn't say I think they want peace at any cost. I said they want to live in peace and having autonomy and their own state would be a good way to go about achieving that.

AcquadiP · 12/02/2025 23:46

Sab06 · 12/02/2025 05:23

I would truly love to see Israel come and occupy the UK, take our farmers lands, our beautiful homes and of course our children’s lives!! Chase us! I think any one of us would line up with any resistance to get what is rightfully ours!! so yes…. Free Palestine!!

Equally, if music festival attendees were tortured, raped and mutilated by Hamas in this country, what do you think our response would be? We'd set out to eradicate them in their stronghold in Palestine.

Lalaloveya · 12/02/2025 23:54

AcquadiP · 12/02/2025 23:46

Equally, if music festival attendees were tortured, raped and mutilated by Hamas in this country, what do you think our response would be? We'd set out to eradicate them in their stronghold in Palestine.

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Hamas is still there. 13000 children are gone.

AcquadiP · 13/02/2025 00:07

Lalaloveya · 12/02/2025 21:08

They had a fairly peaceful life until hundreds of thousands of them were displaced and ethnically cleansed. Now they live under occupation. They want a resolution. Of course they want to be left in peace.Their own state is central to this.

As Patrick Pearse said long ago, "Ireland unfree shall never be at peace". Not technically true nowadays of course but I'm just trying to explain the sentiment.

I'm not sure how Brits feel about all this - you've never been in a position to have someone take this away from you. Britain has always been the one taking it away so maybe you don't understand the strength of feeling.

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"Britain has always been the one taking it away?" Apart from the invasion and occupation of the Vikings (300 years), Romans (370 years) and Normans (100 years) do you mean?

quantumbutterfly · 13/02/2025 00:12

AcquadiP · 13/02/2025 00:07

"Britain has always been the one taking it away?" Apart from the invasion and occupation of the Vikings (300 years), Romans (370 years) and Normans (100 years) do you mean?

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...Barbary slavers were a bit of a scourge too. ....anyway, bit of a derail.

BaMamma · 13/02/2025 00:13

ThePartingOfTheWays · 12/02/2025 19:32

People like the late Vivian Silver are threatening to Hamas, their aims and worldview. The last thing they want is Palestinians and Israelis being friends and working together. They were targeted because of that.

Thank you

Vivian Silver - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Silver

AcquadiP · 13/02/2025 00:14

quantumbutterfly · 13/02/2025 00:12

...Barbary slavers were a bit of a scourge too. ....anyway, bit of a derail.

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You're right they were, 👍

BaMamma · 13/02/2025 00:14

quantumbutterfly · 13/02/2025 00:12

...Barbary slavers were a bit of a scourge too. ....anyway, bit of a derail.

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Wasn't that under the Ottoman Empire? The one that was colonizing Palestine until the British took over after its collapse?

AcquadiP · 13/02/2025 00:20

Lalaloveya · 12/02/2025 23:54

Hamas is still there. 13000 children are gone.

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Hamas is still there, yes, but not in the same numbers as previously (the BBC estimate a third have been killed.)

BaMamma · 13/02/2025 05:53

mouthpipette · 12/02/2025 23:07

@BaMamma wrote
Sure, have a Palestinian state, but alongside Israel, not instead of.

I fully agree.

Great to find points of agreement.

Liv999 · 13/02/2025 07:52

AcquadiP · 13/02/2025 00:20

Hamas is still there, yes, but not in the same numbers as previously (the BBC estimate a third have been killed.)

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That's still a small number unfortunately, and still 13000 children who will never come back to their parents (if they're alive)

mouthpipette · 13/02/2025 08:40

AcquadiP · 13/02/2025 00:20

Hamas is still there, yes, but not in the same numbers as previously (the BBC estimate a third have been killed.)

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Blinken, in his speech a month ago said that the US assessment was that Hamas had recruited as many new members as it had lost. He believed that Netanyahu's policies and their execution were responsible for this..

Original poster

Dawk · 13/02/2025 09:04

Lalaloveya · 12/02/2025 23:37

Well let's be real, they're not going to be offered anything, are they. So there is nothing for those who don't think they deserve their own state or safety or security to worry about in that regard. Israel would have them all removed before they'd let them have their own state, of any description.

I didn't say I think they want peace at any cost. I said they want to live in peace and having autonomy and their own state would be a good way to go about achieving that.

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Both Israelis and Palestinians want to live in peace in their own state. This statement is 100% true, but gives absolutely no indication of how that situation could be reached in a way that would satisfy both sides enough to stop them fighting.

“Just give the Palestinians their own state and stop occupying them”

Where should the borders of their state be? What happens if they are dissatisfied with what they get and continue attacking Israel? I find when we get to the nitty gritty of this question the only credible answer seems to be give them a state according to 1967 borders (which Israel doesn’t want to do), but the polls show that a majority of Palestinians want the whole of Israel. What happens when they get 1967 borders and no occupation and continue to wage war?

“Just do it and hope for the best” seems to be the only answer. Easy to say if you are safe in Western Europe but if I lived within several miles of Hamas I would be less complacent about giving it a go.

OP posts:

Fifiworks · 13/02/2025 09:18

No @AcquadiP Bilken confirmed that Hamas had recruited enough new fighters and were the same size. Super simple, to recruit I’m sure. considering the lack of the basics of life like food.

I don’t find their views particularly surprising to be honest. This is what happens in a conflict and that’a what perpetuates conflicts as well. 35% support Hamas. Just under 50% want a two state solution so still some hope there.

Israeli responses have hardened too. We’ve heard from loads of people on here that they once had more moderate views or believed peace was possible and now don’t believe so,

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-841693

in any conflict, public support and hate is probably the hardest thing to overcome for peace. Conflicts are often driven by hate.

Lalaloveya · 13/02/2025 09:29

Dawk · 13/02/2025 09:04

Both Israelis and Palestinians want to live in peace in their own state. This statement is 100% true, but gives absolutely no indication of how that situation could be reached in a way that would satisfy both sides enough to stop them fighting.

“Just give the Palestinians their own state and stop occupying them”

Where should the borders of their state be? What happens if they are dissatisfied with what they get and continue attacking Israel? I find when we get to the nitty gritty of this question the only credible answer seems to be give them a state according to 1967 borders (which Israel doesn’t want to do), but the polls show that a majority of Palestinians want the whole of Israel. What happens when they get 1967 borders and no occupation and continue to wage war?

“Just do it and hope for the best” seems to be the only answer. Easy to say if you are safe in Western Europe but if I lived within several miles of Hamas I would be less complacent about giving it a go.

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Yes 1967 borders probably.

I don't have a crystal ball so i don't know how it will go, but 70 years of statelessness and occupation hasn't gone too well. I don't think that it's reasonable to continue to deny Palestinians their own state because their occupiers don't like the idea.

Original poster

Dawk · 13/02/2025 09:38

Lalaloveya · 13/02/2025 09:29

Yes 1967 borders probably.

I don't have a crystal ball so i don't know how it will go, but 70 years of statelessness and occupation hasn't gone too well. I don't think that it's reasonable to continue to deny Palestinians their own state because their occupiers don't like the idea.

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It’s not just because they don’t like it though is it. You’re phrasing in a way that makes the Israeli perspective seem trivial because that makes it easier to take sides.
If you restate what you just said accurately, it sounds much less easy:

” I don't think that it's reasonable to continue to deny Palestinians their own state because their occupiers fear that without security measures there will be a return to terrorist attacks, rockets and ground invasions”

Understanding is much better if you state the other side’s position in good faith even if you don’t agree with it.

OP posts:

Lalaloveya · 13/02/2025 10:08

Dawk · 13/02/2025 09:38

It’s not just because they don’t like it though is it. You’re phrasing in a way that makes the Israeli perspective seem trivial because that makes it easier to take sides.
If you restate what you just said accurately, it sounds much less easy:

” I don't think that it's reasonable to continue to deny Palestinians their own state because their occupiers fear that without security measures there will be a return to terrorist attacks, rockets and ground invasions”

Understanding is much better if you state the other side’s position in good faith even if you don’t agree with it.

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Well if danger from attacks from a neighbour was a reasonable reason not to have a state Israel wouldn't have one either. They have never stopped attacking Palestine and have recently razed Gaza to the ground.

OpheliaWasntMad · 13/02/2025 10:49

Lalaloveya · 12/02/2025 23:54

Hamas is still there. 13000 children are gone.

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That is tragically true.

Bluewhitebox · 13/02/2025 15:53

Liv999 · 12/02/2025 20:27

Well ive heard plenty of people on here saying that Hamas declared war on Israel on Oct 7, are you saying those are not murders either then, or does it just work one way? Of course a nation is going to defend itself against an attacker, knowing when to stop before it commits war crimes and breaks International Law is helpful, otherwise they end up looking no better than the attacker

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It was a terrorist attack on civilians that started a war, and they knew it would.

Its not difficult to understand the difference between a war and terrorist attack and its rather tiring to hear people pretend they do not know the difference.

SharonEllis · 13/02/2025 18:08

Bluewhitebox · 13/02/2025 15:53

It was a terrorist attack on civilians that started a war, and they knew it would.

Its not difficult to understand the difference between a war and terrorist attack and its rather tiring to hear people pretend they do not know the difference.

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This

lionlass · 13/02/2025 23:02

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BaMamma · 13/02/2025 23:05

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What are you talking about? I have literally no idea!!

So, we haven't 'all seen'.

Fifiworks · 13/02/2025 23:29

I think we can defend Palestines without undermining the experiences of those on the 7th October which was also hell.