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Conflict in the Middle East
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EasterIssland · 29/01/2025 20:54

statsfun · 29/01/2025 20:51

I think that hurt can skew perception. But the numbers don't really agree.

Sadly, any visible minority will experience discrimination.

But for example hate crimes numbers in England in Wales, for the year to March 2024 show:

Jews: 3282 in a population of 271,000.
That's 1 for every 83 people

Muslims: 3866 in a population of 3.87 million.
That's 1 for every 1000 people

Disabled people: 11719 in a population of 10.4 million.
That's 1 for every 887 people.

Whilst obviously, there should be no hate crimes at all, this doesn't back up a view that there is widespread systemic and societal hatred of and discrimination against Muslims. Jewish people experience hate crimes 12 times more than Muslims, and disabled people experience hate crimes at a higher rate than Muslims.

They do experience because at the same time there are less people. Hence why the proportions are bigger.

can you remind me who were the summer riots against? What religion was the most hated one by those rioting and setting hotels alight ? There is def hate against Muslims in this country. (& in many others)

statsfun · 29/01/2025 20:58

EasterIssland · 29/01/2025 20:54

They do experience because at the same time there are less people. Hence why the proportions are bigger.

can you remind me who were the summer riots against? What religion was the most hated one by those rioting and setting hotels alight ? There is def hate against Muslims in this country. (& in many others)

As I said, there is discrimination against all visible minorities.

But although the perception is there, the numbers are very clear.

gloriagloria · 29/01/2025 21:04

there is a lot of evidence and research that says Muslims massively under-report hate crimes due to a number of factors including mistrust of the police. I don’t know what under-reporting is like for other groups.

Dulra · 29/01/2025 21:04

statsfun · 29/01/2025 20:58

As I said, there is discrimination against all visible minorities.

But although the perception is there, the numbers are very clear.

But although the perception is there, the numbers are very clear.
Clear about what? Both groups are discriminated against and experience hate crime why do you need to prove which group is persecuted more? Why use that information to minimise someone's experience of discrimination and hate.
The stats also only part of the story, they are based on what was reported, I suspect Muslims don't report as much.

statsfun · 29/01/2025 21:07

Because a persecution narrative is unhealthy, especially when it's wrong.

Why do you want @scirocco to believe that she is hated in the UK? Especially when it's simply not true.

EasterIssland · 29/01/2025 21:09

statsfun · 29/01/2025 21:07

Because a persecution narrative is unhealthy, especially when it's wrong.

Why do you want @scirocco to believe that she is hated in the UK? Especially when it's simply not true.

Because whilst the majority will not hate her there is a big % of people that do and are willing to put her life at risk

Scirocco · 29/01/2025 21:12

It's also my opinion that there is widespread, systemic discrimination against other minority groups too. There is substantial evidence that the UK, like many countries, is not as 'equal' as we might like to imagine. Discrimination measures are not purely reflected in hate crime incident reports (and those are themselves influenced by the very systems being considered), but even simply looking at that single measure (which is known to be inaccurate) shows unacceptably high levels of hate crimes for multiple minority groups. One of which is Muslims.

Lalaloveya · 29/01/2025 21:15

statsfun · 29/01/2025 21:07

Because a persecution narrative is unhealthy, especially when it's wrong.

Why do you want @scirocco to believe that she is hated in the UK? Especially when it's simply not true.

No one wants her to believe she is hated.

Personally, I want her life experience and knowledge of this situation as a Muslim to be respected and not dismissed and minimised. As people consistently and rightly demand for people of other religions on these boards.

gloriagloria · 29/01/2025 21:16

I really don’t think this should be an either / or situation. Both Muslims and Jewish people feel they are exposed to widespread and systemic discrimination and hatred. I don’t think it would be appropriate for those outside those group to say this isn’t true just because we don’t see it.

Scirocco · 29/01/2025 21:29

statsfun · 29/01/2025 21:07

Because a persecution narrative is unhealthy, especially when it's wrong.

Why do you want @scirocco to believe that she is hated in the UK? Especially when it's simply not true.

Well, it kind of is the case that many people in the UK hate Muslims. It's why I have personal experience of religiously motivated rape and death threats, why I've had people try to intimidate and assault me, why there are areas of the UK in which it isn't safe for my husband to walk alone, why my family is relieved my DC is pale enough to be 'white passing' in some situations. It's also why those events did not result and do not result in police actions. Stepping out of my personal experiences, the data is there across multiple sectors of society that systemic discrimination against minorities is a widespread and chronic problem. Muslims are not the only group experiencing this, but Muslims are one of the groups experiencing this.

The persistent denial of the existence of such issues is simply another way in which the discrimination manifests for some groups. Consider, for a moment, if people would feel as comfortable saying to a disabled person that they were imagining things or having a persecution narrative if they expressed that there are systemic issues with discrimination against disabled people. I doubt that would be something a lot of people would think it ok to say (some people probably would say it, actually, but that doesn't make it ok). Yet there are some groups (including Muslims but not limited to Muslims) to whom that's considered an ok thing to say...

Whatsinanamehey · 29/01/2025 23:18

There's threads against Muslims almost daily on mumsnet. There clearly is hate, anything goes wrong and just blame the Muslims.

HoppingPavlova · 30/01/2025 02:37

@Scirocco Or, the parties (through a mediation/negotiation process) divide the assets equitably

But you can’t divide a house. That’s why a house is the analogy in this case😊. When two people both believe, unwaveringly, that they own the same piece of land, they don’t want to split it and have halvies each. Common sense says what will happen in that situation is you can put up a fence but they will both stand on either side of the fence, yell at each other, disparage each other, it will escalate to things being thrown over from each side and will just end up blowing up. Not a feasible solution, only ever a short term fix that even so will be problematic. You just can’t have two people claiming ownership of the exact same thing. Will never work in any situation, and you can put 1000 analogies into place, they will all go the same way. No different with this.

Scirocco · 30/01/2025 07:13

Basically, all the people saying that it's impossible to divide assets are saying they don't accept a two state solution and want the ethnic cleansing of one party.

EasterIssland · 30/01/2025 07:26

Scirocco · 30/01/2025 07:13

Basically, all the people saying that it's impossible to divide assets are saying they don't accept a two state solution and want the ethnic cleansing of one party.

Wonder which party they’re keen on cleansing?

dairydebris · 30/01/2025 07:38

Scirocco · 30/01/2025 07:13

Basically, all the people saying that it's impossible to divide assets are saying they don't accept a two state solution and want the ethnic cleansing of one party.

But do you think Israel should accept a legitimate Palestinian state with Hamas in charge?

I don't.

Hamas are repeatedly crushing any hopes of a better future for Gazans.

gloriagloria · 30/01/2025 07:48

I agree Hamas are damaging any hopes of peace. But also Netanyahu has admitted wrecking previous hopes for a two state solution way before 7/10. There needs to be change in both sides.

Dulra · 30/01/2025 07:57

dairydebris · 30/01/2025 07:38

But do you think Israel should accept a legitimate Palestinian state with Hamas in charge?

I don't.

Hamas are repeatedly crushing any hopes of a better future for Gazans.

So what are the options for Gaza if it isn't two state solution? Bearing in mind this isn't all about what's best for Israel it has to work for both if any sort of peace or tolerance can be achieved

dairydebris · 30/01/2025 08:20

Dulra · 30/01/2025 07:57

So what are the options for Gaza if it isn't two state solution? Bearing in mind this isn't all about what's best for Israel it has to work for both if any sort of peace or tolerance can be achieved

I think a 2ss is still the only answer, but I can't see that coming about with either Hamas or Netanyahu in power.

My hope is that Netanyahu is not reelected next year, more moderate voices prevail on Israeli side.

It's harder to see the path to moderate Palestinian leadership.

It's possible, humans are remarkable creatures, but I don't believe it's imminent, sadly. I think we've got more cycles of violence to come first.

Scirocco · 30/01/2025 08:23

HoppingPavlova · 30/01/2025 02:37

@Scirocco Or, the parties (through a mediation/negotiation process) divide the assets equitably

But you can’t divide a house. That’s why a house is the analogy in this case😊. When two people both believe, unwaveringly, that they own the same piece of land, they don’t want to split it and have halvies each. Common sense says what will happen in that situation is you can put up a fence but they will both stand on either side of the fence, yell at each other, disparage each other, it will escalate to things being thrown over from each side and will just end up blowing up. Not a feasible solution, only ever a short term fix that even so will be problematic. You just can’t have two people claiming ownership of the exact same thing. Will never work in any situation, and you can put 1000 analogies into place, they will all go the same way. No different with this.

Not sure what the smiling face is for, other than to express a degree of amusement or positive feeling about a situation in which many people are dying and being forcibly displaced. I don't know if you have any personal connections to this region and conflict, but I do, and the situation you're posting smiley faces about is one in which I have lost loved ones and have other friends and colleagues at risk, so smiley faces do come across as rather inappropriate.

Both Israelis and Palestinians can make valid claims to land in the area. Generally speaking, the forcible and permanent displacement of a population from the land on which they've lived for generations, particularly when it's for the benefit of another group, is considered ethnic cleansing and is unacceptable (illegal, actually) under international law. So, there either needs to be a process through which both Israel and Palestine can exist next to each other, or the international community approves the commission of something which falls under the category of crimes against humanity, meaning that international law becomes meaningless, the precedent is set for this to be condoned as a solution elsewhere in the world, and a population which has already suffered greatly suffers further, with no real hope of healing from something like that.

The Gaza Strip, the West Bank and East Jerusalem were designated as Palestinian territory. However, in all of those areas, people living there have suffered occupation and oppression. Israeli settlements were removed from Gaza before, so there is precedent for the removal of settlements as part of peace processes. Some settlements in the occupied West Bank are now sufficiently established that it would likely be more feasible to negotiate exchanges of equivalent land areas (in both size and land quality), but overall it would be possible to negotiate a solution which ends occupation and puts a stop to the annexation processes that are seen to be underway.

Both the Israeli government and the Palestinian leaderships involve people who have demonstrated their own commitment to preventing a two-state solution. There are voices for peace and finding a way to co-exist rather than continuing this cycle of conflict, and the international community could support those voices to be heard, while working to bring to justice people who have committed crimes and atrocities. A peace process to reach two states living next to each other would have to involve difficult compromises, but this has not been an insurmountable obstacle in other peace processes.

My own opinion is that the leadership of Hamas should never again be in a position of control or authority over the fate of Palestinians or Palestine's neighbours, because they have resoundingly demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to do so without causing immense suffering to both Palestinians and Israelis. If I were negotiating, I'd be looking for an agreement that ensured the surviving Hamas leadership were not involved in the government of a Palestinian state. It would likely be possible to negotiate to achieve that and to have a demilitarised Palestine with no armed forces of its own for a period of time, to allow time for people to undertake work to address issues of trauma and radicalisation and to reduce risks from people and groups with extreme and pro-violence attitudes.

Another issue is border security; Hamas and affiliated groups carried out one of the worst terrorist attacks of the century and that involved breaching border security measures, and the Israeli government and 'settlers' have demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to respect the territory and human rights of others in this situation, so safeguards would be needed in relation to that. International peacekeeping forces and/or a relatively independent coalition of countries committed to maintaining peace could be deployed to establish and maintain border integrity and security.

People won't stop hurting overnight, they won't stop being afraid overnight, they won't stop being angry overnight, but in time people can find a way to tolerate co-existence.

The options in front of people are: to actually commit to making a two-state solution work; to incorporate all the land into one country with equal rights for all (but this country would likely no longer be the Israel or the Palestine people want and need); or to forcibly displace one population from their homeland (which is illegal under international law, sets a precedent for it to happen elsewhere, likely results in the deaths and traumatisation of thousands if not millions of innocent people, and makes the rest of the world - including all of us - complicit in that awful act). When the least bad option is finding a way to co-exist, that's what people should try to do.

EasterIssland · 30/01/2025 08:25

dairydebris · 30/01/2025 07:38

But do you think Israel should accept a legitimate Palestinian state with Hamas in charge?

I don't.

Hamas are repeatedly crushing any hopes of a better future for Gazans.

But do you think Palestine should accept a legitimate israel state with netanhayu and his extremist government in charge?
I don't.
Extremists are repeatedly crushing any hopes of a better future for Gazans.

——

none of the current governments in Palestine and Israel are good for the hopes of a better future for Gaza

EasternStandard · 30/01/2025 09:20

But do you think Israel should accept a legitimate Palestinian state with Hamas in charge?

@Scirocco do you think this should happen?

That Israel should accept a state with Hamas in charge?

Scirocco · 30/01/2025 09:21

EasternStandard · 30/01/2025 09:20

But do you think Israel should accept a legitimate Palestinian state with Hamas in charge?

@Scirocco do you think this should happen?

That Israel should accept a state with Hamas in charge?

Aleeady responded to that above.

EasternStandard · 30/01/2025 09:43

My own opinion is that the leadership of Hamas should never again be in a position of control or authority over the fate of Palestinians or Palestine's neighbours, because they have resoundingly demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to do so without causing immense suffering to both Palestinians and Israelis. If I were negotiating, I'd be looking for an agreement that ensured the surviving Hamas leadership were not involved in the government of a Palestinian state.

@Scirocco I agree with you on this

EasternStandard · 30/01/2025 09:49

If you were the put in place in a leadership role instead of Hamas would you trust them to leave you in peace?

(You as in one, generally)

How volatile are they wrt other state leadership

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