Can anyone help me undestand who we want to win in Syria?

[MeJuly]

Obviously what I really want is for all the killing to stop. But I can't work out which of the sides would be better for us here in the UK if they won. Can anyone who understands what the hell is going on help?

Yeah agree

I just accidentally opened a video of a child of about ten being beheaded by one of these groups. Thank fuck it was blurred. How could they be proud of this. Poor poor boy.

Islamic extremism is a curse on the middle east it really is.

That's awful. Poor child. Extremism is a curse.

This is the post by Golden407 that needs calling out. A dreadful and factually incorrect comment. One has to assume that Golden407 is unaware of what Assad has done. Are you aware @Golden407 🤔

It was a disgraceful and completely inaccurate thing to say. Very interesting how many people didn't call it out I think. And in fact when I called it out someone tried to make out that Golden hadn't actually said it & that somehow I was the bad guy.

Any religion or ideology is prone to extremism. Extremism associated with Islam comes mainly from destabilization of the Middle East with wars. Inflict the same destabilization on other regions/countries with different religions (or without a religion) and you'll get a similar extremism. The problem is not the religion itself but subjecting these people to radicalization.

Maybe. I think a tendency to extremism is more baked in with some religions than with others.

Sorry where did I say this is unique to Islam?

These are places that have had deeply religious populations in the first place. Time and again in the middle east students and communists have fought dictators hand in hand with Islamists. Time and again the islamists have turned on them as soon as they got a sniff of power. The arab spring showed this, the Iranian revolution showed this. the Islamists were there before, they didn’t spring up.

I do agree that wars in the middle east have definitely radicalised some I would argue the roots are actually in anti-colonial movements, pan arabism was probably an antidote to that but it obviously fell by the wayside as the islamist grew. Nasser was a secularists for example. But the idea that Islamists didn’t exist before the wars is for the birds. I was listening to a podcast on the Mahidist (islamist) state in Sudan, it was a response to Ottoman empire so all sorts of colonialism.

Every religion has it’s fanatics we see it in Myanmar, in India, but the middle east still insists on not being able to separate the state from religion. There is a unique problem with actual military and terrorist actions rooted in religion. Maybe in 50 years we will all be horrified by Pentecostals but right now it’s Islamists. Nowhere have I said that it is muslims as individuals. It is religiously motivated fanatics causing misery, mainly to other muslims but specifically to minorities.

No-one forces anyone to kidnap women, take slaves or behead children, murder yezidi, druze, christians, assyrians, kurds . Pretending that someone else made them do it is poor. This is an ideology people choose. They aren’t saying “well we have been destabilised, what we would like is democratic governance with equality for women and minorities”. No they start banging on about religion. Most armies hide these crimes, these people take videos and upload them with glee.

I didn't hold you personally responsible for portraying Islam together with extremism. The mainstream media in the world does that all the time. My statements were a response to this unjust portrayal.

"Time and again in the middle east students and communists have fought dictators"

Would you care to explain this a bit more? Well, I wrote in some other post that I'm originally from Turkey, living in the USA for a long time now. Turkey's military coup in 1980 happened because of the fight between communists and the nationalists. I wouldn't portray the communists as decent freedom fighters. The Bolsheviks of USSR are responsible for millions of deaths of civilians in the name of communism. Communism is a good example to radicalism not associated with a religion. But somehow you mention it as a decent response to religious extremism.

"The arab spring showed this, the Iranian revolution showed this."

If we go and look back at the events taking place before Iran Islamic revolution, we will see that the real fight is about Iranian oil there. The book All the Shah's Men "discusses the 1953 Iranian coup d'état backed by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in which Mohammed Mossadegh, Iran's democratically elected prime minister, was overthrown by Islamists supported by American and British agents". So again, destabilize a country for the Western benefit by overthrowing a democratically elected president and create an environment for other extremists to take over. Then we point fingers at Islamic extremism as if we have amnesia.

"Most armies hide these crimes, these people take videos and upload them with glee."

Israel's IDF soldiers do the same but nowhere in media we see them portrayed as Judaism extremists. Same goes for illegal Israeli settlers.

This. None of this behaviour can be blamed on anybody but the religious extremists. I know several people who have escaped Islamist religious extremism. They are trapped between the extremists of their religion - and cant go home & live in fear for their families back home - and the people who make excuses for them here. Its contemptible.

You don't know Islam and real (behind the facade) politics, or deliberately dismissing the facts. The extremism in Islam stems from Wahabism which only Saudi Arabia (SA) adopts, even they don't go looking for barbarism intentionally and people live in peace under their religious rules. If you ask me, I wouldn't want to go there and live although I'm from a Muslim background but who am I to judge them if they are content with their lives. Regardless, if we consider SA not up to western democratic standards, then why does USA or other western countries have no problem with them but other countries with majority Muslim populations? On the contrary, USA has great political relations and business relations with SA.

The USA senate subcommittee investigating how 9-11 happened found out how USA helped Al-Qaeda grow - I didn't find the exact committee report right away but this widely reported by independent journalists who investigated this subject. Below is an op-ed article and a history thesis about the same issue.

Today, throughout Middle East we see variations of Al-Qaeda affiliated terrorist groups. I won't even go into detail with Isis, which is even more fishy and non-organic to the region. But the common themes of these terrorist groups are: They kill other Muslims in the region, sympathetic to Israel and they don't care about Palestinians. Do you understand now why they are supported by the warmongers in the west?

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-the-united-states-enabled-al-qaeda/

https://digitalcommons.buffalostate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1050&context=history_theses

Theres loads of stuff out there on Yemen, Iran, egypt. i pointed out that I think that anti-colonialism is a contributing factor in the development of Islamic extremism in the middle east. In Iran go back to people being pissed off when Islamic law was replaced with secularism by Reza Shah in the 1920’s (I would agree the way they went about it was oppressive and to my mind wrong). They were already deeply religious. They didn’t become so because of the americans. We need to stop blaming everyone else except for the fanatics for their fanaticism.

I don’t believe all muslims are extremists at all. I believe that there are plenty of people out there quietly getting on with their lives trying to avoid the nutcases. This is true of Christians, Hindus, Buddhist, everyone. But I do believe they exist and they could make a different choice, for democracy, for equality but they are actively choosing religious ideology.

Right now it is Islamic extremism that is harming so many people. In a hundred years it will be another ideology. In the west facism and communism murdered plenty of people. Ideological driven people are always dangerous to the people around them. We shouldn’t be making special exceptions for religion, it as an ideology the same as others.

You don’t become an extremist because you happen to be a member of a particular religion, it is when you believe that your religion gives you permission and the right to oppress others.

I think you are talking about Al-qaeda growing out of the mujahadeen in Afghanistan supported by the USA as a bulwark against communism? Yeah I would agree with you. America fucked up.

I am not excusing the west, I am pointing out that there comes a point when you have to own your own shit. I do think colonial powers have left a god awful legacy in many regions of the world anda lot of conflicts stem from post colonial eras. But I’m also not blind to the fact that pre-colonial eras were also full of conflict, invasions, imperialism and colonialism. Many Iranian ex muslims for example see Islam in Persia as a colonial project, because it was. Just as Christianity in Africa was a colonial project.

I’m not white and I eye roll whenever I hear a brown person talking about my very flawed country of origin blaming the west for everything. If you know it’s a problem fucking fix it. Being a perpetual victim is not improving anything and a lot of problems they have are due to their own demented religious and cultural beliefs and practices.

History happened, we can’t keep saying “and thats why I need to take this girl as a sex slave, cos y’know sykes picot”. Or well y’know the reason we are fucking horrible to gay people is because colonial powers introduced all these laws that made us utter bigots (which we weren’t before because we were super enlightened) but nah we aren’t going to undo that.

"In Iran go back to people being pissed off when Islamic law was replaced with secularism by Reza Shah in the 1920’s"

I don't know the details of this but I can tell we had a similar situation when Turkish Republic was founded on modern and secular principles, which sounds great in theory but in practice it was observed as eradicating religion from public life. When you look at what was done in that era, you'll see nothing less of social engineering. Throughout its history, religious people were oppressed in a way you'd see with France's laicism. When you oppress people unnaturally, you'll get bigger reaction and motivation. If you push enough, you'll get extreme response (I guess) as in Iran.

"But I do believe they exist and they could make a different choice, for democracy, for equality but they are actively choosing religious ideology."

I agree with your previous statements that most people in any religion (or in lack of religion) want to get on with their lives. But when we use terms like "Islamic terrorism" or "Islamic extremism", then we don't give the chance to Muslims (who are mostly moderate) to distinguish themselves. Also, without acknowledging the root causes of the problem (as I stated briefly in my previous response) we can't solve the problem of extremism.

"Right now it is Islamic extremism that is harming so many people."

Again, this is the easy way out to call only one side as the extremists, especially associating it with a religion whose members are mostly moderate. Especially, when the victims of these extremists/terrorists are (moderate) Muslims. The other factors that feed this extremism are Zionism and Evangelical Christianism. The warmongers of every side are using all of these for their own power games. If we want to be fair and really want to solve the problem of extremism, we need to call out all the root causes.

Long story short, using the term "Islamic extremism" is basically victim blaming and gaslighting.

I understand what you are saying, that it feels stigmatising. I do have some sympathy with that, we have our own extremists and I cringe when I hear about them because they don’t reflect the behaviour of anyone I know. I definitely do not want anyone looking at me and thinking that I approve of or associate with any dumb shit they say or do because I find them revolting.

But it is the only way to describe it and to understand it. It explains motivations and why some things are done and why other things aren’t. I consider christians who wish to even ban contraceptives in the USA to be religious extremists. Using the phrase “Christian extremists” is a shortcut to explain someones ideology and motivations. It definitely does not mean I think every Christian is an extremist or holds secret extreme views.

I do agree that we need to be careful to separate out extremist and those who are practicing their religion whilst not bothering anyone else. I am genuinely sorry if I gave the impression that I considered anyone who was muslim to be an extremist, I definitely do not believe that. But it’s precisely why I use the term “Islamic extremist” in the same way I would say “hindu extremists” “Jewish extremist” or fundamentalist. To separate them from all the muslims, jews, hindus etc who are not extremists and don’t endorse violence and oppression towards others on the basis of their own religious beliefs.

With regard to Islamic Terrorism I think this is valid description of a phenomenon; the terrorist are both terrorists and Muslim and in their own perspective devout. In order to combat terrorism of all kinds we need to be honest about its nature and it's influencing factors. I don't think it does anyone favours to separate the ideology that motivates terrorism from the terrorism.

If an extreme Christian for example launched an attack on a day nightclub and it was shown the motivation was based on the Bible, yes, let's call that religious terrorism. I as a Christian would have no problem with this. The same reporting should be used for all religious extremism.

However there seems to be a move by some to partially validate Ismlamic extremism by changing the perception to 'freedom fighter' or 'righteous insurgent'. It is a very dangerous view that terrorists once handed together become a legitimate armed force. We see the impact on the UK where people openly support Hamas and Hezbollah and are rightly prosecute d for it.

As said before Syria is between a rock and a hard place with a merciless dictator on one side and a host of rebel group including a proscribed terrorist organisation in antoher. The West is in quandary about its policy in this region of continual turmoil.

I do believe though that coverage of what I believe will be a blood bath when Assad attempt to retake Aleppo (4 years last time) has to have the same prominence in the media as the war in Gaza and the coverage by MSM remains balanced. A prioritization of Gazan civilians lives over Syrian civilian lives in terms of coverage would hunt of anti semitism.

"We see the impact on the UK where people openly support Hamas and Hezbollah and are rightly prosecuted for it."

Do these people join Hamas or Hezbollah? Do they recruit for them? Do they send money or arms to them? If none, then they shouldn't have been prosecuted. There is a huge difference between actively participating in terrorism and one's freedom to express thoughts. Let's not cross the line because we will be prosecuting "the freedom of speech" while creating more radicalism through oppression. In the end, we will all suffer from our diminishing freedoms.

Indeed! Remember these extremists are trained, funded and supplied by Turkey and the wider West. Worth remembering when criticising the crimes of the Assad regime

According to UN figures over 3000 children under the age of five have been slaughtered in Gaza alone. Can you point out anything Assad is accused of that compares?

@Golden407

"According to UN figures over 3000 children under the age of five have been slaughtered in Gaza alone. Can you point out anything Assad is accused of that compares?"

As of March 2023, the Syrian regime forces and Iranian militias have killed more than 20,000 children since the start of the Syrian conflict. The Russian forces have killed a further 2,048 children.

www.statista.com/statistics/697188/child-deaths-in-syria-by-party-responsible/

Still let's not let facts and figures get in the way of obvious prejudices.

I'm sure that's true. For context, I was referring only to those under 5 years of age. If you want to include all children then I'm in Gaza it's over 25, 000 I believe plus at least another 5000 in southern Lebanon.
Is worth bearing in mind the wars involving Israel have only been going on for just over two years as opposed to the almost 14 years war in Syria.

Quite a start they've made

https://dppa.un.org/en/gaza-number-of-children-killed-higher-four-years-of-world-conflict

This report is from March. The last figure I heard was over 16,000 children. That is over 16,000 killed in 15 months. Facts are not getting in the way of prejudice they are highlighting the huge proportion of children killed in Gaza

@Dulra

"Facts are not getting in the way of prejudice they are highlighting the huge proportion of children killed in Gaza"

So the post by @Golden407 stated:

Can you point out anything Assad is accused of that compares?"

I simply provided linked evidence from Statista (albeit old at March23) that does indeed point out a comparable number of deaths of children by the Assad regime.

This is not a competition on whether Assad or Netanyahu is killing the most children. It is simply answering / correcting a statement by @Golden407 and then inquiring as to the motives on why such a statement was made in the first place

How has a thread about Syria become about Gaza?

I am not here to in any way suggest Assad is not an evil despot who has inflicted immense pain and suffering on Syrian civilians but you are not comparing stats accurately. There is a difference between 20,000 killed in 12 years and 16,000 killed in 15 months.

Both are horrific but it is not accurate to suggest someone has a prejudice because they highlighted the high number of Palestinian children killed in such a short space of time which is higher than the number killed globally in the last 4 years of conflict. These are shocking figures that highlight the huge risk to children currently living in Gaza and it needs to be repeated over and over if there is any hope in protecting the children still alive. Maybe check your own prejudice

No idea you will have to scroll back to see where it happened