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Conflict in the Middle East
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57
Kindatired · 18/12/2024 21:27

samG76 · 18/12/2024 11:19

Kindatired - I'm not criticising Irish people, but the government. All credit to the those who stepped up to the plate and often gave their lives when their government pathetically failed to turn up (or had more sympathy with the other side).

After 800 years of British rule, the British engaged in an economic war against the Free State during the years1932-8 . It brought the economy of the newly independent country to its knees. Many could not afford the basic necessities of life, food, shoes etc The population had dropped to about 2.9 million, a third of those aged under 15.

The new state formed in 1937 had De Valera in charge. He was on good terms with Chamberlain and with Anthony Eden. Ireland did not have the ability to resist Germany and the British were generally happy at that point for Ireland to adopt a neutral position- ie show no overt alignment towards either side. Presumably a neutral but friendly Ireland was better than an occupied Germany. Despite the neutral status, there was extensive co-operation and information exchange as well as good will.

Churchill did not agree with Irish neutrality. De Valera’s answer was had “Germany had won the war and occupied England for a number of years, finally giving freedom to England with the exception of six southern counties, would Churchill be prepared to "...lead this partitioned England to join with Germany in a crusade?"

De Valera’s contemporaries included Hitler, Franco and Mussolini. He might be cancelled nowadays for sending condolences to the German embassy on the death of Hitler, but Ireland came out of the war better than any other small country, even if the economy continued to struggle. The government was elected to serve the interests of the Irish people, not the interests of their former oppressors. And De Valera had been sentenced to death by the British so had to put personal animosities aside to get a good outcome.

So you can criticise the government of the time, but you must also acknowledge their achievements. And also admit that the Americans won the war for the Allies, not the British, no matter how brave and worthy everyone. Had the Americans not come in to the war, the British would have lost and we’d be looking it at this from a different perspective.

OpheliaWasntMad · 18/12/2024 21:39

Kindatired · 18/12/2024 21:27

After 800 years of British rule, the British engaged in an economic war against the Free State during the years1932-8 . It brought the economy of the newly independent country to its knees. Many could not afford the basic necessities of life, food, shoes etc The population had dropped to about 2.9 million, a third of those aged under 15.

The new state formed in 1937 had De Valera in charge. He was on good terms with Chamberlain and with Anthony Eden. Ireland did not have the ability to resist Germany and the British were generally happy at that point for Ireland to adopt a neutral position- ie show no overt alignment towards either side. Presumably a neutral but friendly Ireland was better than an occupied Germany. Despite the neutral status, there was extensive co-operation and information exchange as well as good will.

Churchill did not agree with Irish neutrality. De Valera’s answer was had “Germany had won the war and occupied England for a number of years, finally giving freedom to England with the exception of six southern counties, would Churchill be prepared to "...lead this partitioned England to join with Germany in a crusade?"

De Valera’s contemporaries included Hitler, Franco and Mussolini. He might be cancelled nowadays for sending condolences to the German embassy on the death of Hitler, but Ireland came out of the war better than any other small country, even if the economy continued to struggle. The government was elected to serve the interests of the Irish people, not the interests of their former oppressors. And De Valera had been sentenced to death by the British so had to put personal animosities aside to get a good outcome.

So you can criticise the government of the time, but you must also acknowledge their achievements. And also admit that the Americans won the war for the Allies, not the British, no matter how brave and worthy everyone. Had the Americans not come in to the war, the British would have lost and we’d be looking it at this from a different perspective.

Not sure what your point is?

Piverlool · 18/12/2024 21:46

I think the point (to pp) is to please stop implying Ireland’s government didn’t join WW2 because they were Nazi sympathisers.

OpheliaWasntMad · 18/12/2024 21:50

Piverlool · 18/12/2024 21:46

I think the point (to pp) is to please stop implying Ireland’s government didn’t join WW2 because they were Nazi sympathisers.

Ireland stayed neutral because the country had just come out of a civil war and were a newly independent country. There was no way they could enter a war as allies of their recent enemies ( however much they privately supported their aims) They actually did a great deal to support the allies.

Kindatired · 18/12/2024 22:35

Yes.
Sorry for being longwinded.
The neutrality thing has come up in several anti - Irish posts as evidence of anti semitism. Not possible to understand without context

FancyRedRobin · 18/12/2024 23:17

There's a pretty interesting article on Dev and WW2 here;

"In that context, and returning to the Constitution, it is worth noting that in 1937, de Valera included a specific recognition of the Jewish faith in the article on religion, an extremely striking decision at a time when antisemitism was rampant in Europe.

In recognition of that act, in the 1960s the Éamon de Valera Forest was planted in Israel, near Nazareth.

The then-Israeli prime minister, Levi Eshkol, said the forest was a "fitting expression of the traditional friendship between the Irish and Jewish peoples, two nations that have so much in common of history and fulfilment."

www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2023/0910/1404292-eamon-de-valera-hitler-analysis/

mollyfolk · 18/12/2024 23:40

I don’t think it’s wrong to criticise Israel but it is wrong not to appreciate how fearful the Jewish community might feel seeing weekly marches and hearing the anger.

There aren't weekly marches here. But yes I totally understand that Jewish people here particularly the Israeli's that have moved here for tech jobs must feel uneasy. Of course they must feel defensive of their own country. And as the community is so small, most Irish people won't have ever met a Jewish person so the default here is to assume everyone is pro Palestinian.

I have no problem saying there are people who are anti semitic here. I don't think it's systemic. It's not ingrained in our institutions. Accusing Simon Harris of antisemitism is frankly ridiculous. And accusing Ireland, as a nation, of having extreme views is just not the case.

mollyfolk · 18/12/2024 23:49

@quantumbutterfly

The IRA links to the PLO are well documented. There are still many people in the republic who would like to see a United Island of Ireland and possibly in Ulster too, but currently a fragile and welcome peace prevails

Part of the reason that Ireland feels an affinity with Palestinians is that we also know that it is like your national identity conflated with a terrorist organisation.

BarbaraHoward · 18/12/2024 23:54

I reported that post earlier this evening and MNHQ said they were looking into it. I'd like to say I'm shocked it wasn't deleted but sadly I'm not.

An Irish poster was deleted for saying something like "not this again" (can't remember the exact words). Glad to see the priorities aren't fucked up at all.

OpheliaWasntMad · 19/12/2024 00:12

mollyfolk · 18/12/2024 23:49

@quantumbutterfly

The IRA links to the PLO are well documented. There are still many people in the republic who would like to see a United Island of Ireland and possibly in Ulster too, but currently a fragile and welcome peace prevails

Part of the reason that Ireland feels an affinity with Palestinians is that we also know that it is like your national identity conflated with a terrorist organisation.

The IRA ( not the old IRA - obviously most Irish were in the old IRA) were not easy to live with in the north.
My husband and his family are from the south. I don’t think southern Irish fully understand what it was like to live with that conflict ( maybe you do)

mollyfolk · 19/12/2024 00:14

I think they should leave the post to be corrected. Clearly this is how some people think and I'm happy to correct that.

I don't support any terrorism and neither does the Irish state or Irish people generally. Supporting a united ireland one day is also not supporting terrorism.

OpheliaWasntMad · 19/12/2024 00:16

mollyfolk · 18/12/2024 23:40

I don’t think it’s wrong to criticise Israel but it is wrong not to appreciate how fearful the Jewish community might feel seeing weekly marches and hearing the anger.

There aren't weekly marches here. But yes I totally understand that Jewish people here particularly the Israeli's that have moved here for tech jobs must feel uneasy. Of course they must feel defensive of their own country. And as the community is so small, most Irish people won't have ever met a Jewish person so the default here is to assume everyone is pro Palestinian.

I have no problem saying there are people who are anti semitic here. I don't think it's systemic. It's not ingrained in our institutions. Accusing Simon Harris of antisemitism is frankly ridiculous. And accusing Ireland, as a nation, of having extreme views is just not the case.

Thats fair and honest.
Can you be equally honest and say whether you would choose to come to Ireland to work if you were Jewish?

HelenHen · 19/12/2024 00:18

OpheliaWasntMad · 18/12/2024 20:18

And as for the current situation. I am very sad that Irish Jews are not feeling listened to . It’s not right or fair . They are not responsible for the actions of the Israeli government anymore than the Palestinian diaspora is responsible for October 7th.
I don’t understand why some Irish posters on here won’t even acknowledge the concerns of Irish Jews.

The only people not listening to Irish Jews is the Israeli embassy (if they're israeli). And yes, that's sad and shocking. And most Irish people will empathise with the position they find themselves in.

OpheliaWasntMad · 19/12/2024 00:22

OpheliaWasntMad · 19/12/2024 00:12

The IRA ( not the old IRA - obviously most Irish were in the old IRA) were not easy to live with in the north.
My husband and his family are from the south. I don’t think southern Irish fully understand what it was like to live with that conflict ( maybe you do)

Sorry- I realised that is very unclear. I don’t think Irish people are antisemitic. I just think many Irish people are living in a pretty remote bubble …

OpheliaWasntMad · 19/12/2024 00:24

……🫣

mollyfolk · 19/12/2024 00:25

@OpheliaWasntMad

I honestly have no idea. Coming from Israel might feel difficult. I certainly wouldn't go live in the north - the nationalist support for Palestinians is different up there. It might seem a bit threatening.

I'd certainly like to think Irish Jewish people feel safe here. I'd be interested to know what the Israeli's who have arrived more recently think.

OpheliaWasntMad · 19/12/2024 00:31

mollyfolk · 19/12/2024 00:25

@OpheliaWasntMad

I honestly have no idea. Coming from Israel might feel difficult. I certainly wouldn't go live in the north - the nationalist support for Palestinians is different up there. It might seem a bit threatening.

I'd certainly like to think Irish Jewish people feel safe here. I'd be interested to know what the Israeli's who have arrived more recently think.

Thanks- that’s fair.

OpheliaWasntMad · 19/12/2024 00:37

HelenHen · 19/12/2024 00:18

The only people not listening to Irish Jews is the Israeli embassy (if they're israeli). And yes, that's sad and shocking. And most Irish people will empathise with the position they find themselves in.

Thanks @HelenHen . You really made a point there……….🙃

SharonEllis · 19/12/2024 06:37

HelenHen · 19/12/2024 00:18

The only people not listening to Irish Jews is the Israeli embassy (if they're israeli). And yes, that's sad and shocking. And most Irish people will empathise with the position they find themselves in.

You cant just keep saying something that is blatantly untrue. I have posted Rachel Moiselle on twitter talking about her experience of antisemitism in Ireland. All the people on this thread denying her experience and that of other Jewish people are not listening.

SharonEllis · 19/12/2024 07:10

EasterIssland · 18/12/2024 20:11

This is your comment.
those telling us there's no hostility to Jewish people in Ireland

point at a comment that has said exactly that.

Don't know why you can't find it yourself but there has been a lot of denial and obfuscation on the whole thread so maybe hard to pick out one comment. The poster who said exactly 'No, Ireland is not hostile to Jews' is here.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5208917-ireland-is-this-true?reply=140609419&utmcampaign=reply&utmmedium=share

And that was in response to an article which detailed quite a lot of hostility to Jewish people https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/ireland-has-become-a-hostile-environment-for-jews/

Martymcfly24 · 19/12/2024 07:46

Is Ireland more or less hostile than Britain or other countries?

From the articles you posted there is obviously incidents of anti semitism in Ireland and there is negative feelings about Jewish people living in Ireland. Something no one should ever feel based on their religion and one as nation we do need to address.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/1110/1415925-jews-in-ireland-concerned-about-hostility-chief-rabbi/
This is from last year but seems a fair article.

However From looking through articles and searching on Google there seems to be significantly more incidents of Jewish hate crimes in Britain (1,978 recorded this year)involving anti semitic acts on Jewish people. There was a horrific anti semitic rape in France. Netherlands and Sweden have reported high incidents of anti semitic attacks since 2000.
There has been desecration of property and memorials across Europe.

Yet why is Ireland being branded as the anti semitic country and had the embassy closed, could it be the fact that they are outliers in the support given to the Palestinian people and the other countries have not?

Jews in Ireland concerned about hostility - chief rabbi

Since the Hamas attacks on 7 October and the start of the Israel-Hamas war, countries across Europe and the world have reported an increase in hate crime against Jewish and Muslim communities.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/1110/1415925-jews-in-ireland-concerned-about-hostility-chief-rabbi

SharonEllis · 19/12/2024 08:03

Martymcfly24 · 19/12/2024 07:46

Is Ireland more or less hostile than Britain or other countries?

From the articles you posted there is obviously incidents of anti semitism in Ireland and there is negative feelings about Jewish people living in Ireland. Something no one should ever feel based on their religion and one as nation we do need to address.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/1110/1415925-jews-in-ireland-concerned-about-hostility-chief-rabbi/
This is from last year but seems a fair article.

However From looking through articles and searching on Google there seems to be significantly more incidents of Jewish hate crimes in Britain (1,978 recorded this year)involving anti semitic acts on Jewish people. There was a horrific anti semitic rape in France. Netherlands and Sweden have reported high incidents of anti semitic attacks since 2000.
There has been desecration of property and memorials across Europe.

Yet why is Ireland being branded as the anti semitic country and had the embassy closed, could it be the fact that they are outliers in the support given to the Palestinian people and the other countries have not?

There are 2 things. 1. Diplomatic argument between the Sate of Ireland and the State of Israel. 2. The experience of Irish Jews and Israelis in Ireland.
Antisemitism is not only measured in the numbers of antisemitic incidents that reach a legal threshold to be recorded. The Jewish population is vastly smaller in Ireland than France or the UK. Obviously there will be fewer in Ireland. Its as if you aren't reading the stuff Jews in Ireland are wtiting. Its not just about 'incidents'.
Across the thread I'm seeing really amazing pushback against a minority speaking of their experience. Its been quite fascinating to watch. I wish I was reading a history book though, rather than seeing it in real time.

Dulra · 19/12/2024 08:08

Martymcfly24 · 19/12/2024 07:46

Is Ireland more or less hostile than Britain or other countries?

From the articles you posted there is obviously incidents of anti semitism in Ireland and there is negative feelings about Jewish people living in Ireland. Something no one should ever feel based on their religion and one as nation we do need to address.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/1110/1415925-jews-in-ireland-concerned-about-hostility-chief-rabbi/
This is from last year but seems a fair article.

However From looking through articles and searching on Google there seems to be significantly more incidents of Jewish hate crimes in Britain (1,978 recorded this year)involving anti semitic acts on Jewish people. There was a horrific anti semitic rape in France. Netherlands and Sweden have reported high incidents of anti semitic attacks since 2000.
There has been desecration of property and memorials across Europe.

Yet why is Ireland being branded as the anti semitic country and had the embassy closed, could it be the fact that they are outliers in the support given to the Palestinian people and the other countries have not?

Thank you for posting very reasoned comments from him. I also think his suggestion that he is working closely with the Gardaí demonstrates that our institutions are not antisemitic the Jewish community has played an integral role in shaping them, my own constituency had a Jewish TD for decades who served as a government Minister many times, the current leader of our Labour party is Jewish. For such a small community they have been very influential and very respected. We are not an antisemitic state, yes we have incidents of antisemitism but it is no more than anywhere else, does that mean it should be accepted? of course not and work is constantly being done to improve relations. Does it mean it is more prevalent here than anywhere else? No. Do Ireland deserve the slander, vitriol and unfounded accusations from the Israeli State? No. Is their position helping jews living in Ireland? No

Dulra · 19/12/2024 08:13

SharonEllis · 19/12/2024 08:03

There are 2 things. 1. Diplomatic argument between the Sate of Ireland and the State of Israel. 2. The experience of Irish Jews and Israelis in Ireland.
Antisemitism is not only measured in the numbers of antisemitic incidents that reach a legal threshold to be recorded. The Jewish population is vastly smaller in Ireland than France or the UK. Obviously there will be fewer in Ireland. Its as if you aren't reading the stuff Jews in Ireland are wtiting. Its not just about 'incidents'.
Across the thread I'm seeing really amazing pushback against a minority speaking of their experience. Its been quite fascinating to watch. I wish I was reading a history book though, rather than seeing it in real time.

Across the thread I'm seeing really amazing pushback against a minority speaking of their experience. Its been quite fascinating to watch. I wish I was reading a history book though, rather than seeing it in real time.
You are just refusing to read and accept what we are saying. You keep posting link after link to try and prove something. You have even gone back to incidents from the 1900s! No one has denied there is antisemitism. I grew up side by side with Jewish people my mum still lives next door to our Jewish neighbours. I speak frequently with them when I visit them, I hear them I understand better than you what their life has been like living in Dublin.

Dulra · 19/12/2024 08:15

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