Israeli minister calling for a state that includes many Middle Eastern countries

[Nads0622]

I've just seen a video of the Israeli finance minister Bezalel Smotrich stating he wants a Jewish state, Greater Israel which includes Jordan, Saudi Arabia , Iraq , Syria and Lebanon. He’s basically calling for mass genocide !!!
why is no one talking about this .

Thanks. It is interesting that it says that the current poll is completely different from the poll in 2012 (the 66 percent I referred to) but that the views of the current poll (most not seeing 2 state peace as realistic) were largely the same before 7 Oct, ie it wasn't 7 Oct which caused the drop in support.

That poster is called israelilefty.

As well as the AMA a few months ago, they were very recently on a thread about trauma as a weapon of war. She/he is eloquent, nuanced, sensitive and very knowledgeable.

Or of course the Judges, if it comes to a War Crimes Tribunal.

I don't know, Netanyahu lives in a residential area. He meets his generals and war cabinet there as well. If Hezbollah attacked his home and killed a few hundred Israeli civilians in the process I seriously doubt the media in the West would be blaming Netanyahu for being around civilians.

This is an interesting though grim article by Max Hastings in The Times today. I can only attach a photograph of the page, not give a link unfortunately.

Max Hastings is a very well respected historian. It's a frighteningly feasible scenario. Current times feel more and more like the 1930s.

When will we ever learn?

"This is an interesting though grim article by Max Hastings in The Times today. I can only attach a photograph of the page, not give a link unfortunately."

That is a very well written and thought through article. The challenge as I see it is that the international community see the only rational outcome as the two state solution however many in both Israel and Palestine wish to claim "from the river to the sea " for themselves.

How do you create a peaceful solution that neither of the two participants actually want. Of course as Max Hastings points out if Israel were to get a one state then the conflict would still continue it just from different borders and if Palestine were to try and get a one state then the loss of life across the Middle East would be off the scale as Israel fought for it's very existence.

Thanks for sharing it all sounds so inevitable and hopeless really

Of course as Max Hastings points out if Israel were to get a one state then the conflict would still continue it just from different borders and if Palestine were to try and get a one state then the loss of life across the Middle East would be off the scale as Israel fought for it's very existence.

I didn't read anything in Hastings article to suggest that Palestine were going to try and get one state it is an impossibility. If it ends up as one state it will be Israels.

The only thing that achieves From-the-river- -to-the-sea for both Israel and Palestine is a single Israeli-Palestinian state. You hear of some advocating for that, including some Jews, but I don’t think many people think that would work in practice.

it all sounds so hopeless really

Doesn’t it just.

And it is very upsetting that the expulsion of the Germans from those countries was basically very vicious ethnic cleansing, ( with no one in the least concerned about it then) but at the same time, horrible though it was, that appeared to solved a problem for others.

Daesh and their fellow travellers demand a "global caliphate".

What Daesh want is irrelevant. They neither have the capability nor the support to achieve this.

I think I and others assume it would be dangerous for Gazans to denounce Hamas. I don't know that I think it's dangerous for Israelis to denounce ministers in their government, because they have democratic rights. I don't know why they would not denounce them. Why do you think so?

I don’t think anyone should defend Israeli annexation of Gaza or the West Bank. However I think Max Hastings’ article is highly speculative. He just said it might happen without any rationale to suggest it would.

This isn’t Israeli policy and I don’t think it ever will be.

Interestingly, both Israelis and Palestinians favour a two state solution if the question is correctly framed.

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2024/05/22/as-international-support-for-an-independent-palestine-grows-heres-what-israelis-and-palestinians-now-think-of-the-two-state-solution/

I also don’t think the U.S would allow Israel to annex the occupied territories.

@Newbutoldfather You say it isn't Israeli policy, but the 1977 Likud Charter states that 'a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.' (JVL)

Britannica's entry on Likud states that 'in the early 21st century it adopted a policy opposing the establishment of a Palestinian state under any conditions.'

As Likud is Netanyahu's party, I thought these policies would now be Israeli Governmental policy? So the approach would be to annex the West Bank and have it under Israeli sovereignty, and to rule out a future Palestinian state in those territories.

The Arab world is supporting a 2 state solution, as is most of the world, and I think in this situation it is for world leaders to decide. It comes down to whether the Israeli government can accept this and enter into negotiations.

Palestine and surrounding lands were under Turkish authority until ww1. During ww1 the English promised the Arabs their own countries (ie to make the new countries of Syria, Iraq, Palestine etc etc) if they helped the British fight Turkey. However, in 1917 a Rothschild approached the British foreign office and asked for some land to be given to Jews. This was accepted under the Balfour Declaration which was brief and did not go into detail. It is widely accepted therefore that Britain gave conflicting promises to the Arabs in Palestine and the Zionists. It isn't clear why - there were probably reasons behind the scenes and the British hoped it would work out. Turkey was beaten and at the end of ww1 Britain was given some of the (new) countries including Palestines under mandate to manage the process. The mandate ended in 1948 - by this time there had been many serious clashes - and in the early 1950s the UN decided on the 2 state solution.

I am not extremely hopeful that it will happen - there are too many conflicting power games behind the scenes - but it seems that at the moment, the entire Arab world and most of the wider world is supporting the 2 state solution. Most people want to end the appalling hatred and death of civilians, basically, and hopes that the Jewish world will now embrace the concept?

I also think that a lot of people who chant "from the river to the sea" are not aware of what it signifies. I mean, some people do, obviously, and there will always be extremists, but some of the people I have seen do it, I am not sure they are aware of the significance or the history.

There is another thread on MN at the moment on which a video of an interview with an Israeli commentator has been posted. She is saying that the vast majority of Israelis support the idea that Israel should be the entire area, 1 state solution, and the idea that Iran should be eradicated, and anyone it funds should be eradicated, supporting the attack on Lebanon. This is one small step away from what the minister here is saying, and he is saying that these ideas are commonly expressed in Israel. I will link the thread as it is relevant here.

He's not the finance minister, he's a minister for defense, and he's an extremist member of the Religious Zionist Party. He doesn't represent the voice of the government in any way.

According to google he’s both
he might not represent the voice of the government. But he’s part of the government. It’s like when many of the Tory ministers cocked it up during Covid. They didn’t represent the government but still were part of it and because they didn’t abide by the Covid laws were dismissed. If netanhayu doesn’t want him to represent the government, then he should sack him or break the agreement with the party

Urging occupation, Smotrich says ‘voluntary migration’ could halve Gaza’s population in 2 years

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/urging-occupation-smotrich-says-voluntary-migration-could-halve-gazas-population-in-2-years/

A stupid extremist has mentioned this not the country and all the people of Israel. Most people don't listen to extremists and want they want.

Most people don't listen to extremists and want they want.
Yes but when the extremist is in government and part of policy making it is an issue especially when they are not held to account or forced to resign so it can only be assumed others in government agree with their stance

Yes exactly