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Conflict in the Middle East

Israeli minister calling for a state that includes many Middle Eastern countries

245 replies

Nads0622 · 10/10/2024 10:45

I've just seen a video of the Israeli finance minister Bezalel Smotrich stating he wants a Jewish state, Greater Israel which includes Jordan, Saudi Arabia , Iraq , Syria and Lebanon. He’s basically calling for mass genocide !!!
why is no one talking about this .

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9
Stirabout · 10/07/2025 20:22

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 19:45

This is a contested issue - and is only one out of hundreds in the period so not entirely sure why you raise it - and it happened after 30 years or so of hard conflict so didn't happen in a vacuum. What percentages left of their own accord, what percentage were pushed?

According to wiki:

"The reasons for the exoduses include: pull factors such as the desire to fulfill Zionism, better economic prospects and security, and the Israeli government's "One Million Plan" to accommodate Jewish immigrants from Arab- and Muslim-majority countries; and push factors such as violent and other forms of antisemitism in the Arab world, political instability, poverty, and expulsion. The history of the exodus has been politicized, given its proposed relevance to the historical narrative of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Those who view the Jewish exodus as analogous to the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight generally emphasize the push factors and consider those who left to have been refugees, while those who oppose that view generally emphasize the pull factors and consider the Jews to have been willing immigrants."

As my FIL who was there in1948 in the British navy it is widely known the number of Jewish people entering was far in excess of those agreed. Areas were regarded a no go areas with widespread gangs of Jewish men acting with aggression towards them and Palestinians fleeing with nothing more than they could carry. They ignored the agreement. They ignored the numbers. It was a mess that the British eventually just ran away from. I’m sorry if this pains some people to hear but I have it from someone who was there. The horror of what happened affected my FIL to his dying day .

1dayatatime · 10/07/2025 20:37

@Jumpupjumphigh

"Have you never considered that whichever particularly individuals somebody chooses to show in a youtube video is not a scientifically robust sample of majority opinion"

Do you feel that this is a more robust source of information:

allarab.news/new-poll-reveals-most-palestinians-dont-want-two-state-solution-support-for-two-states-plunging-especially-in-gaza/

ForgesOfEmpires · 10/07/2025 20:38

@havingmorekids

Sorry can't stay away on this one!

Jews faced...

Government-incited violence (pogroms, riots)

Legal persecution (citizenship revocation, Zionism criminalised)

Mass surveillance and arrests

Seizure of assets and businesses

Then I think the countries who did that to Jews made their lives there at minimum tenuous and at worst terrifying. Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria etc all did these things.

I read so much about this history and they faced really bad stuff. Synagogues were torched, pogroms broke out, and entire communities were stripped of assets. Many had to sign documents forfeiting all claims to property to obtain exit permits.

I'm sure for some there were pull factors but it's a bit disingenuous of the wiki article writer to pretend they weren't driven out. I'm sure Jews left Germany when the Nuremberg laws first came into place, and maybe they had pull factors to help them make that choice, but ultimately if you start being persecuted you tend to leave.

I think in some North African countries (especially Morocco and Tunisia), small numbers of middle-class or educated Jews left before mass violence erupted, hoping for better opportunities in Israel, France, or Canada.

But in places like Syria, Iraq and Egypt they fled pogroms, mass arrests, expulsion, citizenship revocation, and confiscation of property. In many cases, Jews left everything behind. Israel had to house them in refugee camps and they arrived penniless and traumatised.

The early years of Israel in the late 1940s and 1950s were marked by extreme hardship, not economic opportunity. The country was under strict rationing, with limited access to food, fuel, and clothing.

Many Jews who fled Arab lands were housed in overcrowded tent cities and transit camps with poor living conditions, so i think most who came did so to escape death, dispossession, or expulsion, not to seek a better standard of living.

Putting myself in their heads, imagine being a Jew in Syria or Libya or Iraq and watching the actual Holocaust unfold, and then suddenly in your own home you begin facing the identical kind of persecution. They must have been terrified and surrounded on all sides by Arab league nations all in on it together .

I'd have fled.

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 20:47

dairydebris · 10/07/2025 12:05

Another post that should be required reading and pinned at the top of the thread.
In particular this-

"At the 2000 Camp David Summit, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians a state comprising 100% of Gaza and 92–94% of the West Bank, with additional land swaps to compensate. The deal included East Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital, with control over Arab neighbourhoods, and proposed joint or limited sovereignty over the Temple Mount. It also included a symbolic return or financial compensation for Palestinian refugees, but not a full right of return to Israel. At the follow-up talks in Taba, Barak offered up to 97% of the West Bank and nearly 100% of pre-1967 territory through swaps.

Yasser Arafat rejected the offer outright without making a counterproposal."

60k+ and 2k+ people would still be alive right now if different choices had been made.

The constant posts from people determined to remove all agency from Palestinian leadership is just odd / possibly rooted in paternalistic racism.

I have seen countless interviews with officials and normal people and have not ever, ever heard anything like what @ForgesOfEmpires said. IME educated people understand the complexities and less educated extreme people don't explain their thinking at such length for a start! Forges - you live in the UK so can you just explain where your information comes from? Are you British, or a different nationality and if the latter when did you move to the UK?

@dairydebris the deal offered to Arafat was take it or leave it. Also you haven't described the deal accurately. The way the land was split and the degree of comtrol held by Isreal in terms of security but also utilities meant it was not feasible that a responsible leader could agree to it. And as others have said Arafat didn't walk away, notwithstanding.

A deal today needs to be negotiated in a more equal way but also in a more sophisticated way. The resources are also key, as well as security for both sides.

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 20:53

ForgesOfEmpires · 10/07/2025 20:38

@havingmorekids

Sorry can't stay away on this one!

Jews faced...

Government-incited violence (pogroms, riots)

Legal persecution (citizenship revocation, Zionism criminalised)

Mass surveillance and arrests

Seizure of assets and businesses

Then I think the countries who did that to Jews made their lives there at minimum tenuous and at worst terrifying. Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria etc all did these things.

I read so much about this history and they faced really bad stuff. Synagogues were torched, pogroms broke out, and entire communities were stripped of assets. Many had to sign documents forfeiting all claims to property to obtain exit permits.

I'm sure for some there were pull factors but it's a bit disingenuous of the wiki article writer to pretend they weren't driven out. I'm sure Jews left Germany when the Nuremberg laws first came into place, and maybe they had pull factors to help them make that choice, but ultimately if you start being persecuted you tend to leave.

I think in some North African countries (especially Morocco and Tunisia), small numbers of middle-class or educated Jews left before mass violence erupted, hoping for better opportunities in Israel, France, or Canada.

But in places like Syria, Iraq and Egypt they fled pogroms, mass arrests, expulsion, citizenship revocation, and confiscation of property. In many cases, Jews left everything behind. Israel had to house them in refugee camps and they arrived penniless and traumatised.

The early years of Israel in the late 1940s and 1950s were marked by extreme hardship, not economic opportunity. The country was under strict rationing, with limited access to food, fuel, and clothing.

Many Jews who fled Arab lands were housed in overcrowded tent cities and transit camps with poor living conditions, so i think most who came did so to escape death, dispossession, or expulsion, not to seek a better standard of living.

Putting myself in their heads, imagine being a Jew in Syria or Libya or Iraq and watching the actual Holocaust unfold, and then suddenly in your own home you begin facing the identical kind of persecution. They must have been terrified and surrounded on all sides by Arab league nations all in on it together .

I'd have fled.

For the first time in 2000 years Jews had a homeland which was backed by extraordinary wealthy and power and you don't think that it is even possible that the majority were wanting to go there through choice? I am partly of Jewish heritage and find your posts really difficult to follow, to be honest. Are you British? Where do you get your information from?

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 20:59

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 20:53

For the first time in 2000 years Jews had a homeland which was backed by extraordinary wealthy and power and you don't think that it is even possible that the majority were wanting to go there through choice? I am partly of Jewish heritage and find your posts really difficult to follow, to be honest. Are you British? Where do you get your information from?

Edited

wealth

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 21:09

1dayatatime · 10/07/2025 20:37

@Jumpupjumphigh

"Have you never considered that whichever particularly individuals somebody chooses to show in a youtube video is not a scientifically robust sample of majority opinion"

Do you feel that this is a more robust source of information:

allarab.news/new-poll-reveals-most-palestinians-dont-want-two-state-solution-support-for-two-states-plunging-especially-in-gaza/

Have a look at the AllArab website, the board of directors and the section "all about All Arab". I am not commenting on right or wrongs but it is partisan, it isn't attempting to be unbiased or objective - so the use of information will reflect bias - and the same information could be used to give a completely different picture if used by people at the other end of the conflict spectrum.

SharonEllis · 10/07/2025 21:12

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 20:53

For the first time in 2000 years Jews had a homeland which was backed by extraordinary wealthy and power and you don't think that it is even possible that the majority were wanting to go there through choice? I am partly of Jewish heritage and find your posts really difficult to follow, to be honest. Are you British? Where do you get your information from?

Edited

Its all widely known. Where on earth does yours come from?

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 21:23

SharonEllis · 10/07/2025 21:12

Its all widely known. Where on earth does yours come from?

Listening to Arabs and Israelis and knowing the history!

What Forges is saying is not widely known, it is partisan and some of it isn't true/is misrepresented

Lettherebejustice · 10/07/2025 21:29

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 21:23

Listening to Arabs and Israelis and knowing the history!

What Forges is saying is not widely known, it is partisan and some of it isn't true/is misrepresented

Somebody revived an old thread? Sadly no ceasefire still!

@forges I recognise your distinct posting style... did you use to post under a different name before?

ForgesOfEmpires · 10/07/2025 21:45

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 20:53

For the first time in 2000 years Jews had a homeland which was backed by extraordinary wealthy and power and you don't think that it is even possible that the majority were wanting to go there through choice? I am partly of Jewish heritage and find your posts really difficult to follow, to be honest. Are you British? Where do you get your information from?

Edited

I'm originally from Egypt. I earned my first degree in Sociology and worked for many years in NGOs and have also lived in both Jordan and the UAE. I moved to the UK and earned a second degree in Genocide Studies, focussed on the Holocaust + middle east which combined well with my language skills. I then worked for some time in international development. I really like dogs, but am meh about cats, and my favourite movie is Legally Blonde.

As you have cited wikipedia previously, here's an article that confirms what I was saying:

After statehood, Israel faced a deep economic crisis. As well as having to recover from the devastating effects of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, it also had to absorb hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees from Europe and almost a million from the Arab world. Israel was financially overwhelmed and faced a deep economic crisis, which led to a policy of austerity from 1949 to 1959. Unemployment was high, and foreign currency reserves were scarce.[66]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel

So I really don't think any significant number of Jews in Arab countries were making that move for financial reasons generally or had access to much, if any extreme wealth.

I just checked the stats and According to the Statistical Abstract of Israel 1953 around 687,000 immigrants were there at the time who had arrived since 1948.
Roughly 220,000 people lived in ma’abarot (transit camps) and the majority of those in ma’abarot - over 80% - were Mizrahi Jews from Arab and Muslim countries (Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, Libya, Egypt, etc.).

ForgesOfEmpires · 10/07/2025 21:47

Lettherebejustice · 10/07/2025 21:29

Somebody revived an old thread? Sadly no ceasefire still!

@forges I recognise your distinct posting style... did you use to post under a different name before?

I haven't been on Mumsnet for maybe years, so if you remember me you have a great memory!

ForgesOfEmpires · 10/07/2025 21:53

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 21:23

Listening to Arabs and Israelis and knowing the history!

What Forges is saying is not widely known, it is partisan and some of it isn't true/is misrepresented

You’re welcome to disagree with me, but please do so respectfully. Saying repeatedly that my posts are not true is just rudeness. If you think something isn't true, tell me specifically what and I am happy to cite it for you, I’m listening. Otherwise, kindly stop targeting me personally.

SharonEllis · 10/07/2025 21:59

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 21:23

Listening to Arabs and Israelis and knowing the history!

What Forges is saying is not widely known, it is partisan and some of it isn't true/is misrepresented

So discuss specific points with her. She is very open to reasonable discussion.

Stirabout · 10/07/2025 22:03

havingmorekids · 10/07/2025 21:23

Listening to Arabs and Israelis and knowing the history!

What Forges is saying is not widely known, it is partisan and some of it isn't true/is misrepresented

It depends where the information comes from. We all see this when we read from a wide variety of sources. Most lean one way or the other. it’s quite obvious when something is biased I think There will be the odd questionable descriptive word which is unnecessary. I take mumsnet as an interesting starting point and certainly it’s very interesting and enlightening to hear how other people think. In terms of factual stuff though …. no. It might be correct but I would always check. Some great posters on here though that is of no doubt.

Jumpupjumphigh · 11/07/2025 07:11

ForgesOfEmpires · 10/07/2025 00:39

Moving on - we today in our modern political world with many wise world leaders wanting peace, we now have a situation where there is political will on the "Arab" side to agree a two state solution - and so with a two state solution their funding of Hamas, Hezbollah etc falls away.

This unfortunately isn't the case.

There are no Arab states that support a two-state solution without the right of return.

This is outlines in the Arab Peace initiative and hasn't been renounced even by the UAE or other places which have normalised with Israel.

So in effect, all Arab states still insist on the right of return as part of a two-state framework and what many Arab leaders call a “two-state solution” is, in reality, a slow-motion plan to erase Israel. It looks reasonable on the surface - two countries side by side - but comes with a loaded condition: Israel must take in millions of Palestinian refugees (many of whom who have been living elsewhere for decades!) and their descendants, roughly 7 million people. That would flip the population balance, handing a likely majority to Palestinians. From there, it's a short step to a single election that puts Hamas in charge of not just Gaza and the West Bank, but Israel too.

If that occurred, the result is identical to Iran / Hamas winning the war so it cannot ever and will never happen.

...assuming that Hamas would win a free and fair election voted on by Israeli jews, Israeli arabs, Palestinians choosing to return from Gaza, Palestinians choosing to return from the west bank (where Hamas is much less of a presence), and Palestinians choosing to return from multiple other lands, all in numbers we can't possibly predict - just because they won an election in 2006 among the one of those demographics where they achieved majority support at that time.

Which is a patently ridiculous assumption.

Jumpupjumphigh · 11/07/2025 07:37

1dayatatime · 10/07/2025 20:37

@Jumpupjumphigh

"Have you never considered that whichever particularly individuals somebody chooses to show in a youtube video is not a scientifically robust sample of majority opinion"

Do you feel that this is a more robust source of information:

allarab.news/new-poll-reveals-most-palestinians-dont-want-two-state-solution-support-for-two-states-plunging-especially-in-gaza/

No.

Joel C. Rosenberg
Joel C. Rosenberg is the editor-in-chief of All Arab News. He is a New York Times best-selling author, Middle East analyst, and Evangelical who lives in Jerusalem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_C._Rosenberg#

Joel C. Rosenberg (born April 17, 1967) is an American-Israeli evangelical Christian, communications strategist, author, and non-profit executive.[4] He has written sixteen novels about terrorism and Bible prophecy, including the Gold Medallion Book Award-winner The Ezekiel Option.

For the record I'm not particularly claiming that most Palestinians support a two-state solution. There may be more unbiased information out there about it and it may show that they don't, I don't know. I was just taking issue with making generalisations based on youtube videos of individuals. It shouldn't be contentious to point out that that's an invalid way of drawing conclusions about whole populations.

I also think whatever the Palestinians express now has to be interpreted in the light of their utterly desperate situation and frustrating history, and it makes no sense to assume their attitudes would remain the same under a completely different, more positive and humane set of circumstances.

Joel C. Rosenberg - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_C._Rosenberg#Career

ForgesOfEmpires · 11/07/2025 08:29

Jumpupjumphigh · 11/07/2025 07:11

...assuming that Hamas would win a free and fair election voted on by Israeli jews, Israeli arabs, Palestinians choosing to return from Gaza, Palestinians choosing to return from the west bank (where Hamas is much less of a presence), and Palestinians choosing to return from multiple other lands, all in numbers we can't possibly predict - just because they won an election in 2006 among the one of those demographics where they achieved majority support at that time.

Which is a patently ridiculous assumption.

Not because they won just one election in one of those places. Because they won pretty much every credible poll in recent memory in all Palestinian territories.

If elections were held in the west bank, Hamas would capture 60% of seats vs Fatah’s 32% according to the latest polls.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Palestinian_legislative_election?

In fairness, it's likely they'd be unable to run due to their violence, but certainly given the polls, as well as fairly public widespread reports for such opression regimes and the absence of any Palestinian alternative at all which supports liberal democracy or anything resembling it, I'd certainly refuse to accept any such suggestion as an Israeli.

I think it's pretty obvious- even ignoring the polls - that at minimum there's a very high level of animosity to Jews around the world, even in western countries, and in both sets of Palestinian terrorises as well as a large number of Arab countries, Jews cannot now, nor have they been able to for 100 years or more, live safely.

I'd imagine they'd need a little more than "trust me bro" to hand over power overnight to people who hate them and are demographically proven to not actually want to live in a similar way.

What would happen to gay israelis for example?

I shudder at how flippant people are but imagine if it were you, you'd be just as apprehensive.

ForgesOfEmpires · 11/07/2025 08:33

Add to that, sorry, but I'm absolutely incredulous that people can look at october 7 - at the tens of thousands of people who acted so brutally and at the thousands more who cheered and attended the coffin parties and thinks Israel should just open their doors and say come in. I just can't imagine what you think would happen.

Lettherebejustice · 11/07/2025 09:09

ForgesOfEmpires · 10/07/2025 21:47

I haven't been on Mumsnet for maybe years, so if you remember me you have a great memory!

That i do!

Yes, I do recognise you now from your writing and your stated degree.

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