What would Keir Starmer do if a group of Norwegians supported by the Norwegian government invaded tomorrow killing thousands?

[itsmabeline]

Raping them, brining children, taking hostages then held them for a year. Then promised they would do it again and again any time they had the power or chance.

Do you think we'd invade Norway?

Do you think we'd have domestic or international support?

"I agree that it's empty words. Unless they can do something to bring Iran into it who have enough cheap, inaccurate missiles to send barrages over to Israel until Israel runs out of their much more expensive defensive missiles. Oh wait.."

Which means Iran is a threat, not Hamas.

Even then, how realistic a threat is Iran? Israel have far more powerful allies as the " cheap barrages" so far have demonstrated.

Not to mention that Israel has nukes which Iran doesn't.

Even when Iran does acquire nukes, it could never use them as it's arsenal is inferior to those of Israel and it's allies.

So am I right in interpreting your long post as boiling down to if you are an innocent civilian living in a country that doesn't have good defences or a government that cares about its citizens you are fair game to be killed by other states?
Some of us don't see this as Palestinian, Isreali, Lebanese etc they see it as innocent human beings who have a right to life and a right to be protected regardless of where they live and that is why there are international humanitarian laws to protect all citizens not just those who live in states that can protect them.

The thing is it's a numbers game. Each of the missiles Iran sends over costs maybe $50k. Each of the air defense missiles Israel has to send up in response costs maybe $1m (I don't have the exact figures but it's that type of ratio). Israel doesn't have an unlimited stock of air defense missiles. They do currently have allies that will continue to provide them to them but the cost is mounting. This is one take of course and there are a lot of threads to this, and the more I talk to people about it the more I realize how little I know. And yes, Israel has nukes, god help us all.

What I do know for certainty is that the only people who are gaining anything from this is a small group of old men desperate to cling to (or gain) power. And none of them care about the civilians involved.

BTW I get your point on whether Hamas is a real threat and I don't necessarily disagree with you! To be clear: Israel's response is completely disproportionate and Israel is clearly committing war crimes. Hamas did too, but that's no defence.

@Auvergne63

Are you calling me an antisemite? This a serious allegation.

I have not personally called you an antismeite, no 🙄🙄🙄

Honestly. What a nonsensical question.

I’m not lying. It’s well documented that they are trained from a young age to behave that way. It’s a sad truth, many but not all, have been raised to hate. Same happened in 9/11. Still can find it on YouTube if you want a gander yourself. In fact when 9/11 happened it was broadcast on BBC news coverage but then the clip was removed.

Even some of the hostages have said that the houses they were captured had children who were being told to violate nd abuse the hostages too. It’s very sick and disturbing all round.

@JaneDoeHere i say this sincerely. You are lying. I can also go around making spurious claims that Jewish Israeli children are indoctrinated with racial supremacy if I wanted to. I can also say that the majority of Israeli society dehumanise Palestinians to justify their brutality against them and to justify the collective punishment they inflict on them. I can find videos and sources to back up my claim too. But it's not the majority is it so it would be a lie. The same way your claim is a lie too. Unfortunately in your situation it does seem like you have reached the stage where you have dehumanised the Palestinians and characterised them as almost feral. I think you should take a hard look at your own bias and hate before accusing others.

No need for the snarky patronising response. I asked in my post whether I had interpreted your post accurately far more constructive to explain where I haven't then just throw about insults

You said, and I quote, " you just don't like Israeli or Jewish people". You are indeed calling me antisemitic.
What would you call someone who said " I don't like Muslims"?
What would you call someone who said " I don't like black people"?
I eagerly await your answers.

@Auvergne63 many posters have displayed their dislike of Israel and Jewish people, my post was not specific to you, although for you to take it so personally is a question in itself.

I am afraid that I disagree and that Gaza children are brought up to hate.

I recognise not all Gaza’s, but many. I think any dehumanising is down to Hamas and their beliefs really.

I'll try again

I know all these posters claiming Israel has responded disproportionately would feel differently if they were the Israeli victims. Yes I'm sure people would it is difficult to be objective in that scenario. Which is why there are global bodies to make those decisions not the individuals impacted. Plus it is not just posters here claiming Israel has responded disproportionately is it?

You can attempt to claim the moral high ground but if it were you, you wouldn’t want the constant bombs and rockets and threats either. Of course no one would want that. It isn't a moral high ground though to call for a proportionate response it's the law.

In my opinion, it seems that many people who won’t defend Israel are simply upset that Israel protects its citizens.
I seriously doubt that, why would anyone not want Israel to protect its own citizens? People have an issue with so many other innocent civilians being killed.

If Israel was run by terrorist groups and embedded their poison amongst the population and didn’t invent and use the iron dome and have bomb shelters and security, there would be 1000s more deaths.
No one has a crystal ball but yes there likely would be and I doubt anyone would stand back and watch them being killed in that scenario

In that case when Lebanon are launching rockets and it kills 800 Israelis instead of 2, would posters and pro-Palestine supporters be happy? No of course not fgs

Because this is what it comes down to. A numbers game. Israel has a lower death toll because they invest in protecting their citizens, Gaza, Lebanon have higher death tolls because the terrorists ruling their countries don’t care and want a higher death toll.
That is part of it but the other part is the disproportionate response and as I've already mentioned in a scenario where citizens are not being protected by their own governments and their attackers there are humanitarian laws in place to protect them.

As always, this will be lost on many posters here because a lot of you just do t like Israel or Jewish people.
Not true most just don't like seeing innocent civilians die

So you are once again calling me an antisemitic. I take it personally because I am one of these posters you referred too.
Why are you not answered my questions? That's a question in itself.

He would tell them his father is a toolmaker, put on a suit that someone else bought him and then explain how hard the job is. While failing to fulfill hs prime role to defend the naion. Utterly clueless and spineless. Macron seems to have forgotten that Hez killed a group of French soldiers and the Israelis sorted it out. Macrons response has been to criticize the Israelis. Pathetic individual. Seems to be a competition among European leaders to ignore facts. The West needs to back Israel while it gets rid of those who have highjacked Middle eastern states to the detriment of those who live in them and reduce the threat to Europe.

I don't see the point in further discussion with yourself as you seem to have taken a very black and white, goodies vs baddies view on the whole conflict.

I find it incredible that people can blame hamas for Palestinian children apparently being raised to hate Jews. Do you ever wonder that perhaps if you grew up with the trauma of being constantly bombed, homes destroyed, your family killed on top of the wealth of war crimes being committed by Israel, that in fact it may be Israel who is fuelling further terrorism and hatred by indiscriminately killing and inflicting crimes against humanity on families and children relentlessly for being Palestinian, not to mention the apartheid

@puttyinboots those things all apply to Jews also.

They have been evicted again and again from their homes throughout the ages, persecuted for thousands of years and of course in recent years subjected to constant rocket attacks and suicide bombings by Hamas and Hezbollah.

The many historical wrongs meted on Jews can in no way be used to justify the destruction Israel has subjected the Palestinians to.

The idea that the current actions in Gaza, the Wedt Bank and Lebanon are making the Israeli people safer is crazy.

This will be a forever war until Israel accepts that Palestinians exist. Many states have borders with countries that hate them, deal with terrorists and fanatics, but no other state acts like that gives them the right to deny the right of their neighbours to exist.
Israel will have to find a way to made peace with its enemies and stop setting its moral compass by the actions of terrorists.

Depends. In this hypothetical scenario, have we been bombing and sniping civilians, bulldozing homes, depriving people of water and basic freedoms and generally "mowing the grass" for decades?

I don't know what Keir Starmer would do, but I don't think it would involve pulverising tens of thousands of civilians, sniping kids in the head, raping detainees with implements or assassinating 5yo girls trapped in cars begging for help.

@JaneDoeHere
Israel has a lower death toll because they invest in protecting their citizens, Gaza, Lebanon have higher death tolls because the terrorists ruling their countries don’t care and want a higher death toll.

JaneDoehere, I think that another reason (possibly the main one) for the death toll of Israel's adversaries being greater than those of Israel might be something to do with the fact that the nation has at its disposal some of the world's most effective ground-based killing machinery. It also has an air force that can fly and deliver rockets, missiles and shells virtually unhindered. These factors, coupled with Netanyahu's lack of restraint, are probably the real reasons for the highly asymmetric casualty rates.

@Daftasabroom and yet post after post on here declares that the vile Hamas attacks of October 7 must be seen in "context"

Nothing happens in a vacuum. Putting an event into context does not excuses it. It merely explains it. We should be allowed to do this without being accused of defending the horrors of 07/10.

@Auvergne63 I completely agree that nothing happens in a vacuum as long as it is applied to both sides.