Obscene atrocities

[candlewhickgreen]

If a state hostile to the west was guilty of atrocities this obscene, there would be widespread consensus that it was one of the great crimes of our age.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/03/slaughter-gaza-women-children-israel-7-october

Interesting article in the Guardian on the consensus among political leaders including Starmer, that they stand by Israel despite their continuing atrocities.

Even though he was a human rights lawyer, Starmer approved of crimes such as depriving the Palestinians of electricity.

Now the potential Conservative leaders are saying that people who oppose Israel's stance aren't wanted in the country and we should be displaying the Israeli flag.

A recent report confirmed that Israel are deliberately keeping aid and food from the Palestinians yet the US has confirmed billions in bombs.

Years of relentless dehuminisation has reduced the Palestinians to entities unworthy of compassion.

I agree with your last sentence. But I suspect we disagree about who they are.

Nonsense. You declaring that I view Palestinians as "less than" or that I am saying they deserve to starve doesn’t make it true. But I do wonder why you apparently don’t object to Hamas saying they welcome the "martyrdom" of those poor people.

Try asking Palestinians how they view Jews, and tell us whether you get answers saying that Jews should not be persecuted and are not "less than". Judging by the videos I’ve seen of Palestinian children being trained to hate and murder Jews, I very much doubt it.

Ask the 20% of Israeli citizens who are of Arab origin if they experience "apartheid". Ask the ones who are judges or members of the Knesset. Ask them if they would prefer to live in a majority Arab country. I have, and not a single one said yes. The women and the gay people were, of course, particularly appreciative of the freedoms they enjoyed in Israel and would be denied in most majority Arab countries. Ask black South Africans to explain what apartheid really looked like.

Then ask the Arab countries why approx. 800,000 Jews were driven out of their countries, losing all their property and belongings, people whose families had lived there for hundreds of years, so that hardly any remain now.

Calling for the murder of all Jews wherever they may be, as in Hamas's founding charter - now that really does sound like a call for genocide. Don’t you agree?

declaring that I view Palestinians as "less than" or that I am saying they deserve to starve doesn’t make it true. But I do wonder why you apparently don’t object to Hamas saying they welcome the "martyrdom" of those poor people.

Just because Hamas may welcome it it doesn't mean Israel can break international law and do it.

Ask the 20% of Israeli citizens who are of Arab origin if they experience "apartheid".

Israel are committing apartheid as decided by the ICJ apartheid is happening in their illegally occupied lands.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/07/19/world-court-finds-israel-responsible-apartheid

Judging by the videos I’ve seen of Palestinian children being trained to hate and murder Jews, I very much doubt it.

Acceptance of hateful ideology on both sides should be condemned and anti radicalisation programmes should be introduced. Children shouldn't be used as pawns.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/29/israel-jerusalem-march-death-arabs-00035862

The first step to peace is acknowledging the harm caused by both sides. No that you have been corrected and can see that Israel are indeed committing apartheid would you like to retract that part of your post?

That's incorrect. Collective punishment is illegal under international law if used against prisoners of war or other 'protected persons'.

"But I do wonder why you apparently don’t object to Hamas saying they welcome the "martyrdom" of those poor people.
Just because Hamas may welcome it it doesn't mean Israel can break international law and do it." This is so ridiculous it would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad. So in your opinion it’s wrong for Israel to do it, but fine for Hamas to welcome it. Right, nothing to object to there…

I note that you ignored my question about whether Hamas's call, in their founding charter, for all Jews to be killed amounts to incitement to genocide.

I do not support and never have supported Israeli actions and settlements on the West Bank, as I have said on MN many times. But Israel as a whole is not an apartheid country, something you have failed to acknowledge. Just as you have failed to acknowledge the driving out of Jews from Arab countries (roughly the same number as displaced Palestinians - yet they have not built an identity of permanent victimhood).

Yes, harm on both sides. But Israeli children aren’t being trained up from infancy to hate all Arabs and learn how to kill them. And I have yet to see marchers for "ceasefire" showing any sort of even-handedness.

If Israel were to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza and lay down all weapons tomorrow, are you really so naive as to believe that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, etc. would just leave them to live in peace? I’m not.

Incidentally, I have very little respect for any branches of the UN. How can an organisation that in 2023 appointed the Iranian Ambassador to chair the Human Rights Council, despite the numerous crimes against human rights (especially of women) in Iran, be taken seriously?

So in your opinion it’s wrong for Israel to do it, but fine for Hamas to welcome it. Right, nothing to object to there…

Where did I say it was fine for Hamas to welcome it? Obviously that is wrong. I said just because Hamas may welcome it it doesn't mean Israel have to do it. Obviously you find that view ridiculous and think if Hamas welcome it is is fine for Israel to do it. I can't agree.

I note that you ignored my question about whether Hamas's call, in their founding charter, for all Jews to be killed amounts to incitement to genocide.

I would say it is. Just like some statements from the Israeli government and officials have been.

Yes, harm on both sides. But Israeli children aren’t being trained up from infancy to hate all Arabs and learn how to kill them.

I don't think Israeli children suddenly reach their teenage years and start marching the streets chanting 'death to Arabs' as per my link. That kind of hatred doesn't happen over night.

But Israel as a whole is not an apartheid country, something you have failed to acknowledge.

I specifically said that Israel are committing apartheid in their illegally occupied lands. Israel are still guilty of apartheid I'm not going to give them a clap for only doing it in the West Bank are you? You do agree that Israel are committing apartheid and that that is abhorrent right?

I can't say that I am surprised that you have little respect for the UN. People with your views generally don't have respect for organisations responsible maintaining international peace and security, developing friendly relations among nations and promoting social progress, better living standards and human rights.

No, I don’t think it’s fine for Israel to do it. But why are the people condemning Israel not also condemning Hamas just as vociferously?

Israeli children were not chanting "Death to Arabs" until some Arabs attacked, raped, murdered, Israeli children, and teenagers at a music festival.

Other than that, I thought you were being relatively reasonable until I got to your final paragraph.

Don't be so silly.

Israeli children were not chanting "Death to Arabs" until some Arabs attacked, raped, murdered, Israeli children, and teenagers at a music festival.

That article is from 2022.

Racist views like this sicken me, that all Palestinians are terrorists or terrorist sympathisers. That Palestinians deserve what is happening to them. I believe it is racism and Islamaphobia.

The most common chant against Palestinians and also sometimes against Palestinian Israelis who dare to speak up is "May your village burn"
This has been from a long time before Oct 7th.

Straw man argument. I never said that.

But presumably the ones who voted for Hamas supported their aim to murder all Jews. Does that not sicken you, then? Do you not regard that as racism and antisemitism?

OK, that was very wrong then. But I don’t believe such hatred was widespread, or the 20% Arab Israelis would not have felt safe living there.

How do you know that they feel safe living there? Just because someone lives somewhere it doesn't mean that they feel safe doing so. Polls would suggest that the vast majority of Israeli Arabs fear for their safety.

A lot of them didn't feel safe.

Yeah that's why they know to keep quiet or risk being further ostracised from the society they live in. There are very few who will speak up. I saw just recently there was a Palestinian Israeli student who returned back to school after getting in trouble for calling the war a genocide. Somebody recorded her being hounded by a mob of students chanting 'may your village burn'

All I can say is that none I’ve ever spoken to (a lot) want to move elsewhere. They dread being forced to move to an Arab-majority country (especially the women or gays).

The student was suspended from school too

From the article
In a class discussion, the girl said that children in Gaza were dying of hunger. Classmates said her village should burn, and allegedly attacked her after class. The school told parents said they suspended her to protect her, but Education Ministry officials accused her of 'inciting against the army'

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-09-24/ty-article/.premium/israeli-arab-girl-12-suspended-from-school-after-empathizing-with-gazan-children/00000192-206a-dc44-affb-39fb8a800000

A poll published by Israeli Channel 12 revealed that 83 per cent of “Arab Israelis” believe that the state practices “institutional racism” against the Arab community. Two-thirds say that they have faced discrimination within Israeli institutions. <From 2022

Moreover, 21.9 percent of Israeli-Arabs reported that they or their family members have suffered from violence in the past year, including beating, stabbing or shooting. Forty-two percent are threatened by violence in their communities. 60% do not feel safe in their communities << From 2020

Well, if they suffer that much and still don’t want to move away I guess it tells us something about the alternatives!

Another thing we constantly hear is Israel is a democracy and people are free to put forward their views. This is not true as some have greater protection than others. As seen above a 12 year old Palestinian Israeli who dares to sympathise with Gazan children is discriminated against, suspended and openly bullied. The video of the incident is disgusting.

Really? Would you say that to British Muslims or British Jews that are currently saying that they don't feel safe? Do you not think acknowledging what is happening and sympathising with how terrible it must be to live like that would be a more appropriate reaction than why don't they just move then which is what your reply boils down to.

You are coming across as very dismissive of Palestinian suffering.

Could you link to this poll please? I can't find it and I'd like to clarify whether it's saying all the violence, assault and threat came from outside the community and from whom, rather than any of it occurring from within, it's not clear.

No, I've closed the tab now. I found it through Google so I'm sure you can too.

I did google and nothing came up so I assumed you'd be able to link to it easily.

ETA as you were quoting from it only ten minutes previously.