Obscene atrocities

[candlewhickgreen]

If a state hostile to the west was guilty of atrocities this obscene, there would be widespread consensus that it was one of the great crimes of our age.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/03/slaughter-gaza-women-children-israel-7-october

Interesting article in the Guardian on the consensus among political leaders including Starmer, that they stand by Israel despite their continuing atrocities.

Even though he was a human rights lawyer, Starmer approved of crimes such as depriving the Palestinians of electricity.

Now the potential Conservative leaders are saying that people who oppose Israel's stance aren't wanted in the country and we should be displaying the Israeli flag.

A recent report confirmed that Israel are deliberately keeping aid and food from the Palestinians yet the US has confirmed billions in bombs.

Years of relentless dehuminisation has reduced the Palestinians to entities unworthy of compassion.

https://cyprus-mail.com/2024/10/03/food-aid-to-gaza-falls-as-israel-sets-new-aid-rule/

Your first mistake was believing in The Rules Based International Order. That only applies to our adversaries, not us.

Not one hostage has been released by captors unhappy with Hamas. I've seen no uprising against Hamas. On October 7th I saw the streets of Gaza thronged with people cheering on and abusing captured Israelis, some already dead. They were clearly happy with the path Hamas had put them on

If Hamas don't care that the people they are in charge of are starving enough to release the hostages, which would instantly bring about the start of peace in Gaza, why should Israel have to feed the people that apparently are happy with what Hamas are doing?

These are actual people you are talking about? Pregnant women, women who need to breastfeed to keep their babies alive, more than a million children. It's called collective punishment, it is illegal under international law in all circumstances.

why should Israel have to feed the people that apparently are happy with what Hamas are doing?

And there you have it

Why should they have to feed people? Well, they aren't the ones providing/paying for/etc the aid. What they should have to do is not obstruct it getting through. And the why is simple. On a human level, because we should give a damn about starving and injured, displaced civilians. On a moral level, because becoming that which people seek to defeat achieves nothing beyond further corruption and darkness in the world. And on a legal level, because collective punishment of civilian populations like this is classed as a war crime and is illegal under international law.

This is truly a vile post, I can't believe there's still people who think like this, unbelievable

There are many. The same folk who wonder what it is that creates the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah. I can only imagine what will replace them in years to come.

On another thread, when challenged on Israel blowing up schools and hospitals, a poster said "Well Hamas shouldn't hide in them." And put the 'shrug' emoji.

That's the inhumanity of war, and that's been building for a very long time.

Because occupying powers have responsibilities towards the occupied population.

You don’t think it would be a good idea for Hamas to release the people they abducted, as a first step towards peace? That sounds vile to me.

You don’t care that Hamas leaders have repeatedly said they welcome the "martyrdom" of Gazan civilians because they think it will help their cause? Now that is really vile.

Of course Hamas should release the people they abducted and Israel should release the thousands of Palestinians they have in detention under no charge.

So of course you’ve been calling for that, with marches and banners, right?

You haven’t mentioned my second point.

That's because you edited your post as I was writing mine.

What you're saying is very hypocritical as you know. The Israeli government has called for the utter destruction of Gaza and has open plans for ethnic cleansing, driving them out to Egypt. They are deliberately witholding humanitarian aid and are being investigated for genocide. Would you call that 'vile'?

Unfortunately, war is brutal. It was also actual people on October 7th. Pregnant women, women breastfeeding, many children. Also many male civilians.

Nobody should have to live under the terror of war. Nobody should have to starve. All children deserve peace, love, warmth, shelter, food. It must be awful for the people of Gaza. They still allow Hamas to hide behind them though. They were openly supportive on October 7th.

People can call me vile, everyone's allowed an opinion. I'm entitled to mine as well though? If a population is going through hell and still supporting the people causing it, I'm not going to expect the opposing side to be responsible for the civilian welfare.

Rockets haven't stopped firing from Gaza for nearly a year now. Why did Hamas prioritise stockpiling weapons over food for the people they were elected to represent? Why did they build tunnels, rather than than bomb shelters?

If the hostages were returned, peace and aid would start to follow. The adult Gazans have a choice in this too. So far, they still seem to be supporting Hamas. Until that changes, nothing will.

No, I don’t "know". You haven’t confirmed that you have been calling for the release of the abducted people. Why is that, I wonder? Do you approve of the tactic of murder, rape and abduction as a tool to get Palestinians released from Israeli prisons? (Like Sinwar, who was released in a grossly unequal exchange some years ago, and showed his gratitude for the Israeli treatment he received for a brain tumour by masterminding the attacks a year ago.)

And you also still haven’t mentioned my second point. Do you think it’s reasonable to expect Israel to care more about the welfare of Gazan civilians than the government of Gaza does? (I agree that from a humanitarian point of view they should, but is it reasonable?)

Exactly.

The adult Gazans have a choice in what? They are under siege and on the brink of mass starvation. You've been told they support Hamas because that strips them off humanity.

I've seen people argue on this board that children are trained by Hamas and that makes them legitimate targets. You're saying the same, that Palestinian civilians deserve to starve.

Do you think cheering on a genocide puts you on the right side of history?

So you think the adult Gazans don’t support Hamas? What is your evidence for that? Presumably it outweighs the evidence we saw of them celebrating the murder of Israelis and defiling their bodies, and the evidence of released hostages that many were held in in civilian homes?

And of course Hamas were originally voted into power, while their charter called for the murder of all Jews. Now that really is obscene. Is that being on "the right side of history"?

You can have your opinion, everybody is like you say entitled to one but if you share controversial opinions like collective punishment resulting in the death and starvation of children is understandable and acceptable then you can expect pushback to those opinions. You can see why thinking that it is ok for Israel to break International law and commit crimes against humanity is controversial right?

They only think this way about 'others'.

I've given up on most of the threads about this conflict. There are some truly psychotic, biased and stupid people walking amongst us.

Muslims are seen as vermin. Nobody gives a shit. I say this as a Muslim btw. People would be quite happy to see us eradicated. Some lives are more worthy than others.

Indeed there are 😔

Also, I have come to think that those who unquestionably support Israel are actually racists.

100%. A man actually said he'd pray for my plane to crash recently. For many people, our lives simply aren't equal to theirs. It doesn't matter what we do, our faith means they view us as undeserving of basic human rights. This conflict has made it even more acceptable for people to say it out loud.