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Conflict in the Middle East

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Auvergne63 · 04/09/2024 15:36

Lettherebejustice · 04/09/2024 13:46

@Miffylou I really can't see why you are defending the IPS as operating on a apartheid system. I can only think that it is ignorance on the matter or denial. There's no debate, it is fact. Go ask anyone who has even the minimum basic knowledge on the matter and they will tell you that there are separate systems and procedures for Israelis and Palestinians in the occupied territories.

Desmond Tutu visited the West bank and stated "I have witnessed the systemic humiliation of Palestinian men, women and children by members of the Israeli security forces. Their humiliation is familiar to all black South Africans who were corralled and harassed and insulted and assaulted by the security forces of the apartheid government. Those who turn a blind eye to injustice actually perpetuate injustice. If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
I think he knew what he was talking about.

Auvergne63 · 04/09/2024 15:48

Lalaloveya · 04/09/2024 15:17

It's hard to read those posts.

It is.

Polka83 · 04/09/2024 17:03

Can you imagine anyone defending any other country giving what is is basically an extra-judicial death sentence for the crime of throwing stones? And for juveniles?

Can you imagine the uproar if an Israeli youth was shot for throwing a stone at a Palestinian?

Auvergne63 · 04/09/2024 17:29

Polka83 · 04/09/2024 17:03

Can you imagine anyone defending any other country giving what is is basically an extra-judicial death sentence for the crime of throwing stones? And for juveniles?

Can you imagine the uproar if an Israeli youth was shot for throwing a stone at a Palestinian?

Can you imagine anyone defending any other country giving what is is basically an extra-judicial death sentence for the crime of throwing stones? And for juveniles?
Yet this is defended again and again and again.
Can you imagine the uproar if an Israeli youth was shot for throwing a stone at a Palestinian?
Indeed.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/09/2024 19:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SababaToo · 04/09/2024 21:29

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/09/2024 22:06

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

I have looked at your link though not read it all. It says indigenous people in Canada are against anti-semitism and against using oppression of a people as justification for murder, rape and capturing their oppressors. Most people are against these.

That does not mean settlers in the USA did not ravaged native Americans and feel justified because the natives were savage in their behaviour, and the pioneers felt the native people were both a threat, and in the way. They would certainly have called the native people terrorists if the word had been in common use then.

Hamas are not justified in their murdering, but Israel is no more justified by multiplying killing forty fold and destroying the whole of another people’s hospitals, schools, universities, mosques, journalists, doctors, lecturers - because they are ‘a sovereign state’.

And proxy of Iran though Hamas may be, it does but have the fighter jets and bombs, military bulldozers, tanks and drones and intelligence Israel has thanks to the U.S.

Netanyahu is not likely to be creating more security for Israelis by his methods.

Itoosurvive · 04/09/2024 22:28

It's interesting to note which countries regard Hamas as a Terrorist organisation.
Red ----- designated as a terrorist organisation
Orange ---- designated military wing as a terrorist organisation

Has enough been done to tackle incitement to genocide?
TimeTravellingTyrion · 04/09/2024 22:32

@Itoosurvive Interesting how?

Itoosurvive · 04/09/2024 22:53

TimeTravellingTyrion · 04/09/2024 22:32

@Itoosurvive Interesting how?

Edited
  1. You start to see how countries are politically aligned.
  2. What's up with Norway and Switzerland ?
  3. Aren't New Zealand supposed to be on our side?
  4. Is it a statement by Africa, or do they just not care? That's all. And your observations?
TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 04/09/2024 23:00

ScrollingLeaves · 04/09/2024 22:06

I have looked at your link though not read it all. It says indigenous people in Canada are against anti-semitism and against using oppression of a people as justification for murder, rape and capturing their oppressors. Most people are against these.

That does not mean settlers in the USA did not ravaged native Americans and feel justified because the natives were savage in their behaviour, and the pioneers felt the native people were both a threat, and in the way. They would certainly have called the native people terrorists if the word had been in common use then.

Hamas are not justified in their murdering, but Israel is no more justified by multiplying killing forty fold and destroying the whole of another people’s hospitals, schools, universities, mosques, journalists, doctors, lecturers - because they are ‘a sovereign state’.

And proxy of Iran though Hamas may be, it does but have the fighter jets and bombs, military bulldozers, tanks and drones and intelligence Israel has thanks to the U.S.

Netanyahu is not likely to be creating more security for Israelis by his methods.

I read your last post that was deleted and I get what you are saying. It's a catch 22 situation for Palestinians. They can't force Israel legally to withdraw and stop their occupation. Any armed response is regarded as terrorism. They aren't allowed a legitimate army. If they try to resist the occupation and systematic discrimination in anyway, protests, stone throwing, even just refusing to move off their land they are killed, arrested, abused, threatened. Israel refuse to end the illegal occupation and refuse to even recognise that they are breaking international law.

It is a no win situation for Palestinians. There is no hope. No hope leads to people who have nothing else left to lose, which results in awful terrorism which results in more killing all round.

The West refuse to sanction Israel and withdraw support propping up their illegal occupation in part because they have the support of people like the posters here who say well it's a pity for Palestinians but who cares really, and the no win situation for Palestinians continues. Until the West wakes up and demand that our governments do something I can't see this resolving.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/09/2024 23:15

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 04/09/2024 23:00

I read your last post that was deleted and I get what you are saying. It's a catch 22 situation for Palestinians. They can't force Israel legally to withdraw and stop their occupation. Any armed response is regarded as terrorism. They aren't allowed a legitimate army. If they try to resist the occupation and systematic discrimination in anyway, protests, stone throwing, even just refusing to move off their land they are killed, arrested, abused, threatened. Israel refuse to end the illegal occupation and refuse to even recognise that they are breaking international law.

It is a no win situation for Palestinians. There is no hope. No hope leads to people who have nothing else left to lose, which results in awful terrorism which results in more killing all round.

The West refuse to sanction Israel and withdraw support propping up their illegal occupation in part because they have the support of people like the posters here who say well it's a pity for Palestinians but who cares really, and the no win situation for Palestinians continues. Until the West wakes up and demand that our governments do something I can't see this resolving.

Edited

Yes. I just could not understand the reasoning of another poster that so long as a country is sovereign, it has the right to terrorise another people with acts of violence but if it is not a sovereign country its violent acts are designated as being terrorism.

I did not know my post had been deleted until you said, but don’t know why and have written to ask.

TimeTravellingTyrion · 04/09/2024 23:28

Itoosurvive · 04/09/2024 22:53

  1. You start to see how countries are politically aligned.
  2. What's up with Norway and Switzerland ?
  3. Aren't New Zealand supposed to be on our side?
  4. Is it a statement by Africa, or do they just not care? That's all. And your observations?

That I hope one day more places will recognise the antisemitic terrorist scum for what they are, although I'm not sure how having proscribed terrorist organisations works in other countries. I'm not sure what you mean by NZ being on "our side" though since AFAIK they do recognise them as a terrorist organisation. And I believe Switzerland is are in the process of doing so.

SababaToo · 05/09/2024 00:04

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

SharonEllis · 05/09/2024 05:15

Itoosurvive · 04/09/2024 22:53

  1. You start to see how countries are politically aligned.
  2. What's up with Norway and Switzerland ?
  3. Aren't New Zealand supposed to be on our side?
  4. Is it a statement by Africa, or do they just not care? That's all. And your observations?

While we are on the question of sovreignty (and I just give up on that ridiculous line of reasoning. Here we are months after a henous terrorist act and people on this thread are equivocating over terrorism. Poor Hamas, my heart bleeds for them) You know Africa is a continent of 54 different states, right? Not a country?

Limesodaagain · 05/09/2024 07:19

ScrollingLeaves · 04/09/2024 23:15

Yes. I just could not understand the reasoning of another poster that so long as a country is sovereign, it has the right to terrorise another people with acts of violence but if it is not a sovereign country its violent acts are designated as being terrorism.

I did not know my post had been deleted until you said, but don’t know why and have written to ask.

I suspect it was deleted because you were implying an equivalence between Native Americans, slaves and the terrorist group Hamas .( I don’t know because I didn’t report the post but I can understand why someone did)

Scirocco · 05/09/2024 07:48

Terrorism and brutality are terrorism and brutality regardless of whether they're carried out by a lone actor, small group, large organisation or government.

What Hamas did on October 7th was terrorism. What they have done before and after it was terrorism. The people responsible should face justice for their crimes.

The 'ordinary people' who took the opportunity to follow the example of terrorists and engage in terrorism and brutality themselves, are also terrorists. They should also face justice for their crimes.

I don't believe justice is the eradication of the Palestinian people or the subsuming of the Occupied Territories into the occupying state. There is a difference between justice and vengeance, and incitement to genocide has no place in justice.

OP posts:
SharonEllis · 05/09/2024 07:56

Scirocco · 05/09/2024 07:48

Terrorism and brutality are terrorism and brutality regardless of whether they're carried out by a lone actor, small group, large organisation or government.

What Hamas did on October 7th was terrorism. What they have done before and after it was terrorism. The people responsible should face justice for their crimes.

The 'ordinary people' who took the opportunity to follow the example of terrorists and engage in terrorism and brutality themselves, are also terrorists. They should also face justice for their crimes.

I don't believe justice is the eradication of the Palestinian people or the subsuming of the Occupied Territories into the occupying state. There is a difference between justice and vengeance, and incitement to genocide has no place in justice.

But there is a place for armed response to a terrorist act. Any state in the world has that right and would exercise that right. Its not the only response to terrorism (other things have to happen too), and it needs to be proportional and withim the bounds of law. There is a space between the acts of terrorism and the subsuming of the palestinian territories but if you can only see Israel through the lens of colonising oppressor with no legitimate right to defend itsrlf then, you cannot see that space. That position is undoubtedly where too many people on this thread are. And that is apologism for terrorism and you will seemingly never actually accept Israel's legitimacy.

Scirocco · 05/09/2024 08:01

SharonEllis · 05/09/2024 07:56

But there is a place for armed response to a terrorist act. Any state in the world has that right and would exercise that right. Its not the only response to terrorism (other things have to happen too), and it needs to be proportional and withim the bounds of law. There is a space between the acts of terrorism and the subsuming of the palestinian territories but if you can only see Israel through the lens of colonising oppressor with no legitimate right to defend itsrlf then, you cannot see that space. That position is undoubtedly where too many people on this thread are. And that is apologism for terrorism and you will seemingly never actually accept Israel's legitimacy.

I'm not sure why you think I'm a terrorist apologist, see no space for a military response or deny Israel's existence?

OP posts:
Zzippit · 05/09/2024 08:06

SharonEllis · 05/09/2024 07:56

But there is a place for armed response to a terrorist act. Any state in the world has that right and would exercise that right. Its not the only response to terrorism (other things have to happen too), and it needs to be proportional and withim the bounds of law. There is a space between the acts of terrorism and the subsuming of the palestinian territories but if you can only see Israel through the lens of colonising oppressor with no legitimate right to defend itsrlf then, you cannot see that space. That position is undoubtedly where too many people on this thread are. And that is apologism for terrorism and you will seemingly never actually accept Israel's legitimacy.

This.

Scirocco · 05/09/2024 08:07

Zzippit · 05/09/2024 08:06

This.

Perhaps you could then explain why you agree with this criticism of me?

OP posts:
Dulra · 05/09/2024 08:11

SharonEllis · 05/09/2024 07:56

But there is a place for armed response to a terrorist act. Any state in the world has that right and would exercise that right. Its not the only response to terrorism (other things have to happen too), and it needs to be proportional and withim the bounds of law. There is a space between the acts of terrorism and the subsuming of the palestinian territories but if you can only see Israel through the lens of colonising oppressor with no legitimate right to defend itsrlf then, you cannot see that space. That position is undoubtedly where too many people on this thread are. And that is apologism for terrorism and you will seemingly never actually accept Israel's legitimacy.

There is a space between the acts of terrorism and the subsuming of the Palestinian territories
What is in that space? Because at the moment subsuming Palestinian territories does look like an aim of Netanyahu and his government you only have to read what they say and see how they are supporting the illegal settlements to know that. They aren't in favour of a two state solution so that means one state Israel. The illegal settlements have grown more this year then any other.

but if you can only see Israel through the lens of colonising oppressor with no legitimate right to defend itself then, you cannot see that space
Again explain the space. The majority of people have no problem with a state defending itself but many posters on here and many governments and ngos feel it has gone way beyond that and is completely disproportionate.

you will seemingly never actually accept Israel's legitimacy.
Who is not accepting Israel's legitimacy? The only state that is not being accepted as far as I can see is Palestine. Why can't you accept their legitimacy and their right to self determination and sovereignty?

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 05/09/2024 08:14

SharonEllis · 05/09/2024 07:56

But there is a place for armed response to a terrorist act. Any state in the world has that right and would exercise that right. Its not the only response to terrorism (other things have to happen too), and it needs to be proportional and withim the bounds of law. There is a space between the acts of terrorism and the subsuming of the palestinian territories but if you can only see Israel through the lens of colonising oppressor with no legitimate right to defend itsrlf then, you cannot see that space. That position is undoubtedly where too many people on this thread are. And that is apologism for terrorism and you will seemingly never actually accept Israel's legitimacy.

And too many people ignore the fact that Israel have taken away Palestinians rights. They are all for shouting about Israels rights, we all know about Israels rights at this point they've made it very clear. What isn't clear is what rights Palestinians have and how that is being protected. Israel are merrily implementing their 'rights' all over their illegally occupied territories. Palestinians meanwhile have to live under illegal occupation, under apartheid, have their right to self determination violently kept from them and other than a wet oh that's a pity I don't agree with that , people keep on shouting about the rights of the sovereign country who continuously violently break international law implementating their 'rights'.

Point out that Palestinians have no way out of their situation and you are apologising for terrorism. Cheer on Israel as they continue their decades of breaking International law and you are championing the rights of the people. Israel have got it all sealed up don't they.

OP posts:
Limesodaagain · 05/09/2024 09:55

Scirocco · 05/09/2024 07:48

Terrorism and brutality are terrorism and brutality regardless of whether they're carried out by a lone actor, small group, large organisation or government.

What Hamas did on October 7th was terrorism. What they have done before and after it was terrorism. The people responsible should face justice for their crimes.

The 'ordinary people' who took the opportunity to follow the example of terrorists and engage in terrorism and brutality themselves, are also terrorists. They should also face justice for their crimes.

I don't believe justice is the eradication of the Palestinian people or the subsuming of the Occupied Territories into the occupying state. There is a difference between justice and vengeance, and incitement to genocide has no place in justice.

I agree but the trouble with violent conflict is, once it has been started, it almost inevitably escalates until one side has been defeated.

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