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Conflict in the Middle East

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ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 23:54

MissConductUS · 10/06/2024 23:45

There's no mystery about the link. It's from a scholarly article published by the Lieber Institute.

https://lieber.westpoint.edu/articles-of-war/about/

This is what I was asking. Is this a US military affiliate?

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 23:56

noblegiraffe · 10/06/2024 23:21

"It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy "

But they didn't disguise themselves in order to kill, injure or capture their adversaries, they disguised themselves to rescue hostages from terrorists. So that would seem to be irrelevant.

They disguised themselves to rescue hostages, sure. They gained entry to a refugee camp to do so, which they later bombed, killing hundreds of people.

I'm not sure why the second part doesn't resonate with you no matter how many times it's said but I have my suspicions.

Thisagainandagain · 11/06/2024 00:00

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 23:56

They disguised themselves to rescue hostages, sure. They gained entry to a refugee camp to do so, which they later bombed, killing hundreds of people.

I'm not sure why the second part doesn't resonate with you no matter how many times it's said but I have my suspicions.

What are your 'suspicions'? What are you alluding to?

Polka83 · 11/06/2024 00:02

I am glad for the hostages and their families, and also for Israelis.

I am devastated for the Palestinians, whose lives appear meaningless to Hamas and the IDF.

War crime or not- it just doesn’t add up that over 250 killed and many more hundreds injured to save 4 hostages (and remember hostages were supposedly killed in this operation).

All lives should be equal - call that naive, or just humanity. That’s why people and the press all over the world are pointing out the unevenness of the situation and the need for BOTH Knesset and Hamas to accept a ceasefire.

You can’t have a law for all situations as some have pointed out. Some laws - like IHL arise out of hindsight and reflection following unjust acts. That doesn’t make what the IDF did right.

Frankly I don’t think the Israeli government care anymore what international community think of them, and arguing against some here is pointless.

Scirocco · 11/06/2024 00:06

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 23:54

This is what I was asking. Is this a US military affiliate?

The website is pretty unambiguous about its status.

noblegiraffe · 11/06/2024 00:07

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 23:56

They disguised themselves to rescue hostages, sure. They gained entry to a refugee camp to do so, which they later bombed, killing hundreds of people.

I'm not sure why the second part doesn't resonate with you no matter how many times it's said but I have my suspicions.

You mean you don't understand why you haven't been able to distract me from the discussion that points out you are wrong by making spurious accusations about me?

It's a common tactic...I've been on the internet a long time.

noblegiraffe · 11/06/2024 00:10

I do wish that people would understand that not wanting Hamas propaganda shit spread across Mumsnet does not equal support for Israel.

Challenging Hamas propaganda shit should happen, regardless of your opinion of Israel.

MissConductUS · 11/06/2024 00:12

HelenHen · 10/06/2024 23:18

I don't understand what you're saying, or why you're saying it to me!

Sorry, I meant to quote what you quoted from ConnieCounter.

DownNative · 11/06/2024 00:21

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 23:31

I don't think they envisaged having to write a law for an army who pretend to refugees that they are also refugees before bombing their camp, so no, this exact situation isn't in the law. Because it's so far from accepted norms the law doesn't exist.

But you can infer that if it's prohibited against combatants it's also prohibited against civilians if you go on to bomb them and kill hundreds as part of that "operation"/massacre.

If you want to keep pretending the bombing didn't happen it's pointless talking to you.

Anyway, my initial and only point was that the IDF would not be able to admit that they'd dressed up as refugees as it is possibly a war crime and this appears to be the case: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hostages-casualties-1458f5a1dfe7bd4d908231bb7090a559

DownNative derailed the thread, not me. I tried not to engage.

Edited

"I don't think they envisaged having to write a law for an army who pretend to refugees that they are also refugees before bombing their camp, so no, this exact situation isn't in the law. Because it's so far from accepted norms the law doesn't exist.

But you can infer that if it's prohibited against combatants it's also prohibited against civilians if you go on to bomb them and kill hundreds as part of that "operation"/massacre."

No.

The IDF operatives only pretended to be refugees in order to enter Nuseirat undetected and to make their way to a building near the hostages in order to prepare for the mission undetected.

As soon as the mission started by advancing on both buildings simultaneously where the hostages were kept, the IDF operatives were no longer pretending to be refugees.

Indeed, nobody could mistake them for refugees given the fact their weapons would have been very much on show and visible.

That means it doesn't constitute an act of perfidy.

The article you linked to states:

"The rescue of Argamani seems to have gone smoothly, while the team extracting the three other hostages ran into trouble.

Chief Inspector Arnon Zamora, an officer in an elite police commando unit, was mortally wounded during the break-in, in which all the Hamas guards were killed, Amos Harel, a veteran defense correspondent, wrote in Israel’s Haaretz newspaper. Then the rescue vehicle carrying the three hostages got stuck in the camp, he said.

Palestinian militants armed with machine-guns and rocket-propelled grenades opened fire on the rescuers, as Israel called in heavy strikes from land and air to cover their evacuation to the coast. “A lot of fire was around us,” Hagari said.

It was this bombardment that appears to have killed and wounded so many Palestinians."

Important, crucial information underlined.

The IDF operatives were close to getting away from Nuseirat with the hostages almost undetected. But, unfortunately, their vehicle got stuck.

Hamas terrorists then start attacking the prone vehicle with soldiers and hostages inside with machine-guns and rocket-propelled grenades aka RPGs.

Due to this, it is allowed to call for supporting fire including air strikes. That includes striking areas where Hamas terrorists and civilians engaged in hostilities were firing RPGs at the vehicle as well helicopters.

It's permissible to allow a fire corridor to be created too. That's how you get hostages from busy Nuseirat all the way to the beach to be rescued by a waiting helicopter.

It was the actions of Hamas that endangered the lives of civilians and their heavy fire would have resulted in a lot of civilian deaths. If they hadn't done that, there would not have been the need to have airstrikes to take Hamas terrorists out too.

Hamas used really heavy, excessive weaponry in a densely populated civilian area. That led to more civilian deaths.

Had the vehicle not got stuck, the IDF operatives would have been well away from the crowded Nuseirat. Its better for the soldiers and hostages to be away from that area as quickly as possible due to the very high risk of ambush by Hamas in addition to the extraction team being overwhelmed by Hamas' numerical advantage in Nuseirat.

As I said before, the mission was NOT intended to kill, capture or injure the adversary. Absolutely not with a small team in a heavily populated area with loads of Hamas terrorists there.

No, the mission intention was to rescue the hostages as quickly as possible with Absolutely NO time wasted for any reason.

Unfortunately, things usually go wrong in military operations. And that was the getaway vehicle getting stuck.

This operation doesn't fit with claims of perfidy at all.

WildSage · 11/06/2024 00:35

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

DownNative · 11/06/2024 00:46

Yes, @WildSage, the IDF operatives would have been killed by the superior number of Hamas terrorists if they hadn't blended in on entering Nuseirat.

And would never have got anywhere near the hostages in order to rescue them.

It's also permissible to "mislead an adversary or induce him to act recklessly but they infringe no rule of international humanitarian law and are not perfidious".

So, someone in Gaza asking who they are and where they come from? Yep - soldiers are allowed to lie to them. After all, tell a civilian the truth and word WILL spread like wildfire.

Hamas acting recklessly in response to the IDF rescuing hostages is also on Hamas. Its permissible to carry out a rescue even though the enemy WILL act recklessly.

IDF cannot be held responsible for the recklessness of Hamas who routinely put civilians and hostages in harm's way.

Polka83 · 11/06/2024 07:22

The idea that the IDF is not responsible for the repercussions of its own bombing is THE most stupidest thing I have now read.

Polka83 · 11/06/2024 07:28

Argue if you wish that Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinians or that the Palestinians deserved / needed to die in this scenario.
But the IDF could and should have calculated how many would die - they will have known.

noblegiraffe · 11/06/2024 07:29

Does Hamas get any blame in this or is it all on Israel?

Polka83 · 11/06/2024 07:41

noblegiraffe · 11/06/2024 07:29

Does Hamas get any blame in this or is it all on Israel?

Of course they do- but you can’t keep blowing up innocent civilians and just saying “Hamas” particularly when there is another way.

SocoBateVira · 11/06/2024 07:41

noblegiraffe · 11/06/2024 07:29

Does Hamas get any blame in this or is it all on Israel?

Come on, you know the answer to that one!

quantumbutterfly · 11/06/2024 07:44

I wonder if they will include the people who have been held by hamas since 2014 in their negotiations.

Anyway...not the subject of this thread, what a bad little derailer I am.

LordPercyPercy · 11/06/2024 07:52

Argue if you wish that Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinians or that the Palestinians deserved / needed to die in this scenario.

Yet Hamas engaged the rescuers with heavy weaponry in a crowded area.
Yet again Hamas starts something and Israel gets the blame, predictably.

EdithStourton · 11/06/2024 07:54

Polka83 · 11/06/2024 07:41

Of course they do- but you can’t keep blowing up innocent civilians and just saying “Hamas” particularly when there is another way.

Oh, please tell us what the 'other way' is.
Would it be caving in to the demands of a terrorist organisation that broke a ceasefire, massacred many people including babies and took hostages (also including babies)?

EdithStourton · 11/06/2024 07:55

LordPercyPercy · 11/06/2024 07:52

Argue if you wish that Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinians or that the Palestinians deserved / needed to die in this scenario.

Yet Hamas engaged the rescuers with heavy weaponry in a crowded area.
Yet again Hamas starts something and Israel gets the blame, predictably.

And I don't think anyone has argued that some lives are worth more than others.

Thisagainandagain · 11/06/2024 07:55

Polka83 · 11/06/2024 07:28

Argue if you wish that Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinians or that the Palestinians deserved / needed to die in this scenario.
But the IDF could and should have calculated how many would die - they will have known.

Edited

How on earth can you "calculate how many would die"?

A careful plan. Disguise to get in quietly. First rescue only Hamas die. Second rescue encountered heavy fire, escape vehicle trapped and under increasing fire. So just let them die. Its permissable to rescue them/get them out.

It appears Hamas get a free pass every single time. They can do no wrong. Israel successfully rescued 4 hostages. No one knows how many of the dead were Hamas, probably none according to some on here. The ones firing on the rescue squad would have been killed. Hamas using grenades and RPGs would kill others. Then getting a fire tunnel to escape which is permissable others. Hamas chose to fire heavily then mightchave considered their civilians around and not opened heavy fire but they didn't. Again they get a free pass.

SocoBateVira · 11/06/2024 07:56

LordPercyPercy · 11/06/2024 07:52

Argue if you wish that Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinians or that the Palestinians deserved / needed to die in this scenario.

Yet Hamas engaged the rescuers with heavy weaponry in a crowded area.
Yet again Hamas starts something and Israel gets the blame, predictably.

Indeed. Are the IDF also responsible for the consequences of Hamas choosing to endanger everyone around them by trying to prevent the rescue of civilian hostages? If not, and if Hamas are in fact responsible for their own choices and the outcomes of them there, best to be very clear about that.

Thisagainandagain · 11/06/2024 07:56

EdithStourton · 11/06/2024 07:55

And I don't think anyone has argued that some lives are worth more than others.

They haven't. It has been explained why people died. Its incredibly sad.

DownNative · 11/06/2024 07:59

Polka83 · 11/06/2024 07:22

The idea that the IDF is not responsible for the repercussions of its own bombing is THE most stupidest thing I have now read.

Edited

This is one of the stupidest interpretations of what's been said I've read!

Especially as it takes things completely out of context in order to reach it. 🤦‍♂️

No, the IDF isn't responsible for the recklessness of Hamas in opening up in a crowded civilian area with heavy machine gun fire and rocket-propelled grenades!

The intention with that is to kill everything in its path - IDF soldiers, hostages, Hamas supporting civilians and uninvolved civilians.

A hostage rescue mission is perfectly legitimate to conduct and also entitled to use ruses of war, including where the adversary goes on to be absolutely reckless in their actions!

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