IDF statement on Aid Convoy Stampede

[Yellowducksandrakes]

What’s happened: Following the death of dozens of Palestinians after a stampede broke out around an aid convoy west of Gaza City, the US has blocked an Algerian-sponsored statement at the United Nations Security Council which sought to blame Israel.

• While reports conflict, it appears that:
• Before dawn yesterday morning, approximately 30 trucks containing aid entered the Gaza Strip to deliver food to the Rimal neighbourhood of Gaza City.
• At approximately 4.40 AM, thousands of Gazans swarmed the trucks. Drone footage of the event shows some of the trucks attempting to drive through the crowds, presumably in an effort to extract themselves and deliver the aid they were carrying.
• After a number of trucks were able to continue north, armed men opened fire on what remained of the convoy.
• While the IDF has admitted that its troops did open fire, it says that this was only “when they encountered danger, when the mob moved toward it in a manner that endangered the force”.
• The IDF also says that it “did not fire toward individuals seeking aid and we did not fire toward the humanitarian convoy from the ground nor from the air.”
• It is being reported that at least 112 Gazans were killed in this incident, with approximately 760 being injured. However, as these figures originate from within the Hamas-run Palestinian Ministry of Health, their veracity is questionable.
• The IDF’s initial inquiry into the incident has concluded its troops’ fire killed only 7 or 8 people and that the majority were killed in the chaos, not by shooting.
• “The tanks were there to provide security for the trucks. Our aircraft gave the troops on the ground a full picture from above,” the IDF said.
• “When the hundreds turned into thousands, the IDF complied with international law… Israel did not limit the quantity of humanitarian aid entering Gaza. We recognize the suffering of the Gaza residents.”
• In the aftermath of this event, much of the international community has reiterated calls for an immediate ceasefire and increased aid being allowed into the Gaza Strip.
• At the United Nations Security Council, Algeria sought to issue a statement which explicitly blamed Israel for this deadly incident. While supported by 14 out of 15 council members, it was blocked by the US.
• When asked why the US had not supported this statement, Deputy Ambassador to the United Nations Robert Wood said: “We don’t have all the facts on the ground – that’s the problem.”
• He also said that in the face of contradictory reports, the US was trying to establish facts, including regarding the “circumstances around how people died”.
• President Biden has also discussed this incident with Qatari Emir Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al-Thani and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi. According to a White House statement, they agreed that it “underscored the urgency of bringing negotiations to a close as soon as possible”.
• The White House has also called for this event to be “thoroughly investigated”.

Context: Israel will conduct a thorough investigation into an incident which further highlights the complexity of distributing aid to the Gazan people and the urgent necessity of forming a civilian infrastructure to prevent further incidents of this kind.

Well quite - that's exactly what I'm saying. That it wasn't sudden.

There's been a whole load of attacks and counter-attacks which connect the riots and massacres of the 1920s to the wall around Gaza today.

That is ...

a) not wrong on facts, also ...
b) totally disingenuous in its portrayal, in the way that the description completely blanks out the insane power imbalance and the context of "a nuclear state suffocating an occupied population for decades"

But you are looking at the whole history of the conflict through the lens of the 2024 power imbalance.

There was a huge power imbalance in the other direction in the 1920s, in 1947-48, even in 1967. You are being disingenuous when you frame the whole 100-year conflict as being powerful Israel oppressing a powerless local population.

The previous power imbalance, the threats of annihilation: they are part of the context of the current conflict. It would be unrealistic to expect them not to feed into Israel's perspective.

@statsfun It is accurate to say that power imbalances in the region have been dynamic when viewed over a long period. That's accurate to say about any area. Understanding the history is important. The history does not justify or excuse actions taken and allegedly taken.

The world should not accept oppression, potential war crimes, terror attacks, etc., at all. Just as we should not look at the actions of 7/10 and think those should not have consequences, we should not turn a blind eye to the growing body of evidence that the current military action and government strategy appears contrary to international law in a number of ways, and there should be consequences, just as for any government and military force where these concerns arise.

What I've noticed a lot is that it seems very hard for people to just say: the actions and alleged actions of the Israeli government and IDF are horrible and unacceptable. On the few occasions people do say something like that, it's caveated with things about 'but you need to look at the context' or 'but we can't judge harshly'. Why is it so hard for people to just say that it's horrible?

The previous power imbalance, the threats of annihilation: they are part of the context of the current conflict. It would be unrealistic to expect them not to feed into Israel's perspective.
If you believe that these feed into Israel's perspective, are you prepared to state that they must also feed into Hamas 'perspective? This is not one sided.
Disclaimer: I am not pro Hamas.

@Scirocco ,

I have unambiguously said through this thread that some of the actions of the IDF appear to be war crimes and, of course, should be dealt with accordingly.

Can you similarly, and without equivocation, condemn the Hamas ‘tactic’ of hiding behind civilians and especially commanders directing attacks from critical civilian infrastructure such as hospitals.

However, I believe that these are individual IDF units gone rogue (as the SAS did in Afghanistan) and not IDF or government policy, The Israelis have repeatedly stated that policy is to attack Hamas and spare civilians, not to attack or long term displace the civilian population.

Again, it was clear in the first few days of the war that the Israelis were using food and fuel as a weapon, again illegal. But they did not keep this up for long and have done a volte face, now trying to get food and fuel in. Hamas have, of course, tried to disrupt this to get the Israelis condemned.

Many on this thread have also been very silent about the emaciation of the released hostages and the fact that many have been beaten. Remember, these were civilians, not solicited, many of them teen festival goers.

As to ‘punishment’ of countries, we don’t really punish allies, it just doesn’t happen. In the same way as the U.S won’t get punished for Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo Bay.

However, hopefully you have noticed the sanctioning of the Israeli settlers and ban on international travel (including the U.S). Israelis no more get a free pass than anyone else in this regard.

Finally, there will definitely be consequences for Israel for this war. Israel will be very closely observed and pushed into a two state solution settlement and the present government won’t last long. The U.S has issued some very strong statements recently, which is pretty much the first time they have ever done this to Israel.

Of course, the irony will be that Hamas will have kind of achieved its aims, but if this leads to a more peaceful region for both Israelis and Palestinians, it is probably for the good.

I would have thought it was pretty obvious that I unequivocally condemn the actions and tactics of Hanas. Given that I have consistently unequivocally condemned the actions and tactics of Hamas. But yet again, it's difficult for people to do the same in relation to the Israeli government and IDF.

From my experience of the region, the actions of the Israeli government and IDF are not consistent with 'rogue units'. They are entirely consistent with established processes, policies and cultures within those organisations, which have been in place for many years. I know people who have done time in the IDF (I won't say served, because they didn't describe it as service, I'm using the description they themselves used). I'm aware of some of the things they were routinely ordered to do. This is on a bigger scale, but is consistent with those people's experiences. (Just as a fair chunk of the horrible things done by other military forces in the ME have been consistent with operational practices and should not be brushed away with the 'a few bad apples' excuses).

What I can say is that I have never observed military or terrorist activity within a hospital site in Gaza. Now, I've not visited every hospital site, and in an urban combat zone, people do set up where they can, so I'm not saying it's not happening/happened because I'm just one person. But hospitals should never be used as military hubs or targets and anyone who has contributed to that is, in my humble opinion, a complete arsehole.

There are entire threads on this board dedicated to different aspects of the humanitarian crisis and atrocities, including threads about the hostages. This thread is primarily about the IDF statement on what happened at an aid convoy, so it's not surprising that there may be less discussion on this particular thread about issues not directly attached to that topic, as MN do like people to try to keep on topic. Again, it seems difficult for people to just say some things are bad, without caveats of other things also being bad.

And again returning to the idea of 'punishment'. International justice is not and should not be about 'punishment'. It's about justice. Justice includes identifying and condemning what has happened, identifying the people/organisations and processes involved, and taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen/reduce the risk of it happening again. 'Punishment' doesn't make the world safer. Justice does.

@Scirocco ,

You clearly know far more about the actual region than I do, but I do think that Hamas tactics are to fight an asymmetric war, dragging it out as long as possible and causing a massive amount of civilian casualties, leading to international condemnation of Israel and a ceasefire.

I also think that Israel dived headlong into this trap and would have been so much more intelligent in courting the civilians and having very targeted and precise attacks on the terrorists for as long as it took. But, then you have the ‘Gaza Metro’, which would forever have been a problem, and is hard to deal with without brutal urban warfare. So, as I said previously, there is no good solution.

‘From my experience of the region, the actions of the Israeli government and IDF are not consistent with 'rogue units'. They are entirely consistent with established processes, policies and cultures within those organisations, which have been in place for many years.’

Again, I lack you experience and I cannot categorically know. But, what I can say is that this would be a massive conspiracy as it is clearly not public policy and, in the internet age, it would be very hard to keep it secret. If soldiers were given orders to torture and humiliate, don’t you think a few would leak it over time?

‘There are entire threads on this board dedicated to different aspects of the humanitarian crisis and atrocities, including threads about the hostages. This thread is primarily about the IDF statement on what happened at an aid convoy, so it's not surprising that there may be less discussion on this particular thread about issues not directly attached to that topic, as MN do like people to try to keep on topic. Again, it seems difficult for people to just say some things are bad, without caveats of other things also being bad. ‘

I do find this a bit bizarre, although I know it is now a ‘thing’ and people criticise others for ‘whataboutery’. But ‘whataboutery’ is traditional called context and is pretty important. It would be strange if MN had existed in WW2 to have separate threads on the the carpet bombing of Germany and the Blitz, without being allowed to link them…

‘And again returning to the idea of 'punishment'. International justice is not and should not be about 'punishment'. It's about justice. Justice includes identifying and condemning what has happened, identifying the people/organisations and processes involved, and taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen/reduce the risk of it happening again. 'Punishment' doesn't make the world safer. Justice does.’

I don’t think that is what justice means, although I do agree that one day a deeper understanding would be useful. Justice is about reparations to the victim and punishment to the perpetrator, at least in the normal sense of the word. So, in a fair world, Israel needs to at least partially pay for the rebuilding of Gaza and anyone who has committed war crimes against civilians should be tried and, if found guilty, imprisoned.

The only time, though, that I can think of victors being magnanimous in victory and subjecting themselves to justice was the Marshal Plan, so I am not holding my breath.

In the situation of WW2 bombings (and I really dislike WW2 comparisons in this context, I'm only using this because it is the comparison brought up above), I wouldn't necessarily expect to read comments about the bombing of Dresden in a thread about a specific event in London. There is a balance between an appreciation of the broader context of a specific event, and a discussion of the specifics of that event. Both are important, and mixing the two up too much dilutes and distracts from both.

To use a healthcare example, consider a man who is seen in A+E, who is having a heart attack. The specific issue that needs to be assessed and treated urgently is that for some reason, this specific man is having a heart attack. The wider context of background risk factors, different presentations, his long-term rehabilitation potential, etc... all of that is relevant to his situation in the longer-term and should be discussed, but not in the specific situation of him actively having a heart attack and needing immediate treatment to prevent him from dying.

An individual thread can be about a specific topic or about a broader view, both are valid and necessary, and both types of thread can be found on this board. But I wouldn't infer from a thread being about a specific element that the people posting don't also care about other elements or the broader picture.

Sometimes, focusing on a particular topic can also be a sign of respect for the complexities of a horrific situation, and consideration for people for whom discussing a particular aspect (or not having a safe space to discuss a particular aspect) might be distressing. It wouldn't be particularly compassionate to go onto a thread specifically about bereaved families in Israel, for example, and to start saying that the 'context' is more important than their grief. Unfortunately, there are no spaces like that on this site for people to safely discuss their grief in relation to deaths of people in Gaza or the West Bank. Whenever a thread starts, it quickly becomes filled with comments about needing to look at the 'context'.

It is quite sad that so many people can't find room in their hearts to simply say that an objectively terrible thing is a terrible thing, or, if they can't bring themselves to say that, to say nothing instead.

@Newbutoldfather what I'm describing isn't conspiracy theories. These are publicly stated and reported events and patterns of behaviour.

Senior political and military figures have made statements about the perceived second-class nature of Palestinians. More recently, there were clear statements that all aid and resources would be cut off. Some of those statements have gone before the ICJ in the current genocide case.

There is a long history of media coverage of policies and opinions in favour of re-occupation, increasing the numbers of approved 'settlements' in the Occupied Territories. Recent media coverage included senior political figures dancing and celebrating at such events. There is evidence that supports the concerns that the IDF have, in addition to tacitly supporting 'settlers', provided weapons to aid in the establishment of 'settlements' in the Occupied Territories.

There are decades-worth of first-hand accounts from people who spent time in the IDF, talking about what they were ordered to do and what the culture was like.

There are reports, first-hand accounts, video footage, etc all about the various policies and views held by different sectors of the government and military.

cameron confirming that the Israel government is holding for weeks British aid

https://twitter.com/aliciakearns/status/1770824294240600253

www.instagram.com/reel/C4yDHNHsbEP/?igsh=MXBobzlrYjBjNjR4cw==

Interesting footage.

@stomachamelon what's interesting about it?

It's well known that there's palestinian clans that are helping to secure the aid and in fact Israel is actively looking into helping some of them to do so by arming them.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-clans-factions-step-protect-gaza-aid-sources-say-2024-03-19/

It was also reported that Hamas killed someone from one of the clans that was helping to secure the aid as they see it as aiding Israel

Also incorrect in that Hamas and ISIS are different, so the captioning is inaccurate.

I also read a comment that police were on the aid Lorries to protect them. You could see the word police on their clothes

This is also interesting

Gaza aid delivery hampered by Israeli attacks on police, rising chaos

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/22/gaza-aid-deliveries-looting-police-hamas/

@Parkingt111 I meant interesting as I mentioned earlier in the week about Hamas murdering heads of clans for helping Israel with delivering aid.

@Scirocco saying the "power imbalances in the region have been dynamic when viewed over a long period. That's accurate to say about any area" is a bit disingenuous.

Israel was attacked by all surrounding countries with the stated aim of destroying it and seemingly the capability in 67. The people who are currently making the military decisions were young soldiers in that war for survival. That's not a long period. And it can't be compared to eg how Poland's economic and political power has subtly shifted in Europe over the same period.

You also question why people won't condemn Israel and say that you do condemn Hamas - but I see very similar conditional condemnation from both sides. Ie condemning what is clearly wrong, but people making different judgements about what they believe to be true.

You said that you condemn the atrocity Hamas committed on 7th October. You answer @Newbutoldfather 's question about hospitals by saying that anyone who turns a hospital into a military target is a complete arsehole. But you don't think Hamas have.

How is that different to what @Newbutoldfather said, condemning many actions but saying he doesn't believe Israel are drying to destroy the Palestinians?

I likewise condemn Israel using starvation as a tool of war. I also (to match your hospital viewpoint) think that anyone who deliberately murders or harms civilians as an end in itself is a complete arsehole. (and worse than that). But I don't think Israel is doing that. You disagree, I know.

I won't be condemning everything that you accuse Israel of - because I don't believe they do it. Just as you don't condemn everything I accuse Hamas of - because you don't believe they do it.

You also said that these threads are here for people to empathize and grieve, and if people can't do that then they should stay silent. I do normally try not to comment. But when posters (not you) start making broader commentary which is misrepresenting history I think it's reasonable to interject. There's a lot of propaganda / narrative building on both sides. And I don't think these false narratives help anyone.

As the Guardian says this morning, starvation in Gaza is man made, caused by an unwillingness by Israel to allow food in by road, which is the only unproblematic method. It is the last thing that I ever could have imagined that Israel would do, but they have, and it's an international disgrace.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/22/obstacles-to-gaza-aid-deliveries-visual-guide?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

The false narrative being that of Israel being an all-powerful perma-bully.

How is it false. Every single organisation (even David Cameron) have said that aid ain’t getting quicker because Israel is not checking the Lorries. Because they check the Lorries they send back loads of products.

if Israel didn’t control these Lorries they would be in Gaza by now.

so how is it a false narrative ?

If the cap fits....
You have demonstrated time and again on this thread that you are unwilling to believe anything that Israel is accused of doing, despite ample evidence
I likewise condemn Israel using starvation as a tool of war. I also (to match your hospital viewpoint) think that anyone who deliberately murders or harms civilians as an end in itself is a complete arsehole. (and worse than that). But I don't think Israel is doing that
I admire your blind trust but the evidence is there for all to see and yet you still deny it

I read that this morning.

It makes it clear how they have almost completely isolated Gaza over the years.

Now they’ve isolated them, to ‘protect’ themselves, they are abusing their power to starve the entire population.

If that isn’t a crime then I don’t know what is.

Imagine being so full of hatred and vengeance, and having such a big ego, and such a warped view of the world, that you go to bed every night thinking you’ve done the world a service by purposefully starving an entire population.

Imagine seeing pictures of hungry children and instead of wanting to help them, you consciously planned and decided they must suffer for your cause.