IDF statement on Aid Convoy Stampede

[Yellowducksandrakes]

What’s happened: Following the death of dozens of Palestinians after a stampede broke out around an aid convoy west of Gaza City, the US has blocked an Algerian-sponsored statement at the United Nations Security Council which sought to blame Israel.

• While reports conflict, it appears that:
• Before dawn yesterday morning, approximately 30 trucks containing aid entered the Gaza Strip to deliver food to the Rimal neighbourhood of Gaza City.
• At approximately 4.40 AM, thousands of Gazans swarmed the trucks. Drone footage of the event shows some of the trucks attempting to drive through the crowds, presumably in an effort to extract themselves and deliver the aid they were carrying.
• After a number of trucks were able to continue north, armed men opened fire on what remained of the convoy.
• While the IDF has admitted that its troops did open fire, it says that this was only “when they encountered danger, when the mob moved toward it in a manner that endangered the force”.
• The IDF also says that it “did not fire toward individuals seeking aid and we did not fire toward the humanitarian convoy from the ground nor from the air.”
• It is being reported that at least 112 Gazans were killed in this incident, with approximately 760 being injured. However, as these figures originate from within the Hamas-run Palestinian Ministry of Health, their veracity is questionable.
• The IDF’s initial inquiry into the incident has concluded its troops’ fire killed only 7 or 8 people and that the majority were killed in the chaos, not by shooting.
• “The tanks were there to provide security for the trucks. Our aircraft gave the troops on the ground a full picture from above,” the IDF said.
• “When the hundreds turned into thousands, the IDF complied with international law… Israel did not limit the quantity of humanitarian aid entering Gaza. We recognize the suffering of the Gaza residents.”
• In the aftermath of this event, much of the international community has reiterated calls for an immediate ceasefire and increased aid being allowed into the Gaza Strip.
• At the United Nations Security Council, Algeria sought to issue a statement which explicitly blamed Israel for this deadly incident. While supported by 14 out of 15 council members, it was blocked by the US.
• When asked why the US had not supported this statement, Deputy Ambassador to the United Nations Robert Wood said: “We don’t have all the facts on the ground – that’s the problem.”
• He also said that in the face of contradictory reports, the US was trying to establish facts, including regarding the “circumstances around how people died”.
• President Biden has also discussed this incident with Qatari Emir Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al-Thani and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi. According to a White House statement, they agreed that it “underscored the urgency of bringing negotiations to a close as soon as possible”.
• The White House has also called for this event to be “thoroughly investigated”.

Context: Israel will conduct a thorough investigation into an incident which further highlights the complexity of distributing aid to the Gazan people and the urgent necessity of forming a civilian infrastructure to prevent further incidents of this kind.

@EasterIssland ,

There is a massive propaganda war on both sides, I trust very little from either of them.

What is clear to me, though, is that Israel don’t want to starve civilians. Initially, they thought Hamas might give back the hostages in return for allowing aid in, but Hamas clearly don’t give a flying fuck about their own people, so there is only downside now.

Israel are still pretty dependent on the U.S and they have made it clear that aid must be allowed in, so it will happen.

I think, once Netanyahu goes, which he will, things will get better.
Things will get better for who?

You may not view it as a genocide, many disagree with you, but there is absolutely no justification for starving people that act alone is a war crime. Everyone can see what Israel are doing and yes they are going after Hamas but they are also imposing a collective punishment on all Gazans which is another war crime. I don't know how anyone at this stage can even begin to justify the actions of the IDF in Gaza and suggest
they had to fight back and it was never going to be pretty, there's fighting back and there is punishing, killing, starving the population of Gaza* *

@Newbutoldfather they thought Hamas might give back the hostages in return for allowing aid in
do you not know that using humanitarian aid as a condition of releasing hostages is collective punishment and a war crime. You may not believe Israel intended to starve a population but they are whether they intended it or not.

If they don’t want to starve civilians they need to try it harder. UNICEF and UN are condemning the current starvation caused by IDF (their words)

@EasterIssland ,

I think people either don’t understand or don’t want to understand the absolutely seismic shock that Israel felt about the Hamas attack. Large areas of Israel are still evacuated.

I don’t think any country wouldn’t act a little crazily when their citizens had been subjected to that. Look at what we did during the ‘War on Terror’. I am maybe more forgiving of Israel because I cannot envision a ‘civilised’ way of prosecuting a war where your enemy’s strategy is to hide behind civilians in the hope that they will be safe there.

However, I am not going to attempt to defend everything Israel has done, especially not the way they have treated medics and other civilians. Clearly, if they persist, they will have crossed the rubicon between a civilised country who are making a mistake and an uncivilised country.

I do honestly think they will now allow aid in and take the world’s humanitarian concerns seriously. But, we shall see. The next month or so will tell.

I think Israel are making the same mistake the U.S made in Iraq , in that Hamas are both the enemy and the administration, so how can aid be implemented when there are no police to deliver it safely.

I think Israel are making the same mistake the U.S made in Iraq , in that Hamas are both the enemy and the administration, so how can aid be implemented when there are no police to deliver it safely.

US Secretary of State for Defence offered US expertise in this area immediately after 7/10 [might even have visited Israel that w/e] and was told 'no thanks we know what we are doing'

About 3-4 weeks ago US told the Israeli government to stop targeting Gazan police who were responsible for ensuring the safety of aid convoys - they ignored this advice and the police withdrew their services - subsequently civil disorder driven by hunger has made aid distribution even more difficult

I mean it's not as if they haven't been well advised by their closest ally is it?

And even more recently the IDF killed the Chief of Police for northern Gaza who was helping to co-ordinate the aid response

@Efacsen ,

‘And even more recently the IDF killed the Chief of Police for northern Gaza who was helping to co-ordinate the aid response’

But it is a bit more complicated than that? If it is the same guy I am reading about he was a police general and brother of one of the founding members of the Hamas military wing. I couldn’t find much out about his personal history.

Hamas are the declared enemy of not only Israel but global Jewry (including me!). Basically, if this guy could kill me, he would.

There is a long history here of Iran cleverly (and cynically) helping Hamas win the Gaza election by supporting their civilian program. And then, of course, by making their genocidal declaration, Hamas made it clear that they could never work cooperatively with Israel.

I would say the Palestinian civilians have effectively been groomed by Hamas (and Iran) into being strongly anti-Semitic.

There are literally no good choices for Israel to make.

Ultimately, destroying Hamas, and setting up an internationally backed two state solution is the optimal outcome, but that also should mean removing the settlers from the occupied territories and sharing Jerusalem.

They got really close to the above until Arafat kaiboshed it for reasons unknown (probably because he was making a fortune from the eternal conflict).

The next month or so will tell.
Many Gazans don't have a month left to live. The Israeli government is making sure of this.

“not been behaving well
@Newbutoldfather This is minimising what Israel is doing. It’s also implying that it’s ok to stand back and let Israel carry on and let the projected 70, 000 more deaths just because Gamas started it this time

@Kindatired ,

‘just because Gamas started it this time’

This is the ultimate in minimising!

You can’t take what Hamas did to start this out of the equation. They behaved like wild animals, raping and pillaging and taking civilians as hostages.

Most of the hostages are still either in Gaza or dead.

As I said in an above post, I don’t know how Israel could have responded without it being horrific. In fact, this was Hamas’s ‘plan’.

It doesn’t excuse any deliberate mistreatment of civilians but, equally, it is very cynical (and probably antisemitic, though obviously I can’t know people’s motivations) in discussing Israel’s actions in isolation of the provocation that started this.

Patronising, much?

We are not in an airport, so no need to announce your departure.
I really don't have time for such petty-minded bullshit.
As the great Jean Jacques Rousseau once wrote and, I quote, "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong". I fully concur with him.

@Newbutoldfather what's your basis for considering Palestinian civilians (as a group?) to be anti-semitic? That's a very big statement aboit a large number of people, given that there are Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, surrounding countries and the international diaspora.

On the whole, it hasn't been my experience (now, granted, I don't personally know several million people) or the reported experience of other people, including Jewish volunteers and humanitarian workers who have spent time in the Occupied Territories. I've encountered a broad range of experiences and expressed views, and not a universal or near-universal hatred of any group of people on the basis of their faith or ethnicity.

Examples of 'not behaving well':
Not sharing toys.
Talking in class.
Leaving laundry out instead of tidying it away.
Trying to dodge bathtime.

Examples of things that probably need their own category, separate from the above:
Restricting and withholding aid, including vital healthcare resources and food that could have prevented a man-made famine.
Shooting visibly unarmed people waving white flags and attempting to surrender.
Crushing people to death with armoured vehicles.
Abducting healthcare workers and journalists, subjecting them to physical and emotional abuse/torture and threatening their families.
Ordering people to evacuate places and then shooting the people told to evacuate, while they attempt to evacuate.
Declaring a location a 'safe zone', then bombing it once people are there.
Killing prisoners and leaving their bodies to rot.
Among others.

@Scirocco ,

I really hope you are right and you may well know better than me!

But they did vote in Hamas, admittedly many years ago, a party with the avowed aim of removing all the Jews from Israel.

And, to be honest, for whatever reason it has happened, they have been treated appallingly by Israel in recent years. I imagine if I was growing up there, I would hate Israelis and, probably, Jews by extension.

The situation is tragic and needs a proper solution before both sides become increasingly radicalised,

I visited Israel only once as a teenager in the early 80s, and it was definitely more harmonious on a day-to-day basis.

@Scirocco ,

‘Examples of things that probably need their own category, separate from the above’

And where does the initial Hamas barbarity sit on your scale?!

The problem is that wars are always barbarous and civilians are never spared, regardless of who is the underlying ‘good’ actor.

Is the U.S a ‘bad’ country because of what they did in Abu Ghraib, Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11.

And the end of WW2 included our flattening of Dresden and Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

It is especially hard when your enemy’s tactics are specifically to not be a target unless they take civilians with them. This is the ultimate in cowardice.

I am not a Netanyahu fan. I don’t believe in the illegal settlements in the occupied territories and there are definitely elements within Israel who are nakedly racist.

But, I don’t think any of the above defines Israel, any more than the UK and U.S are defined by their war actions in the past.

They did vote in Hamas

can you tell me when was this and also how many of the nowadays citizens were able to vote ?

Are you saying what it’s happening in Gaza is ok because they voted in Hamas ?

@Newbutoldfather
Is the U.S a ‘bad’ country because of what they did in Abu Ghraib, Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11.

This is hardly a measuring stick you would want to hold Israel up against would you. The US in many ways acted terribly. They also warned Israel not to make the same mistakes that they did so in reality admitted to this.

Most of the people living in Gaza today, did not vote in Hamas. They wouldn't have been old enough to vote. There haven't been free elections for a long time now, and no credible alternative either in Gaza. The blockade simply isolated Gaza further, cutting off opportunities to weaken or challenge Hamas politically and creating a situation in which large numbers of people were dependent upon Hamas in order to survive. If a blockade prevents the legitimate sourcing of essential things for survival, people are then dependent upon the black market for those things.

You are right, @Newbutoldfather that people in Gaza have been treated appallingly for a very long time. But despite that, I heard voices asking for peace, for equal rights, for an end to occupation and blockade in a way that could lead to a sustainable peace. There were other voices too, but those weren't the loudest ones among the voices I heard. And when I did hear voices expressing anger, it wasn't primarily because the person hated Jews for being Jewish - it was anger and pain regarding their persecutors because they were being persecuted.

@Newbutoldfather also how successful have the US wars in recent years been? Just look at Afghanistan, all these years at war and who is in power right now?
It's a massive failure on their part. Hardly a winning strategy

And, to be honest, for whatever reason it has happened, they have been treated appallingly by Israel in recent years. I imagine if I was growing up there, I would hate Israelis and, probably, Jews by extension. [...] I visited Israel only once as a teenager in the early 80s, and it was definitely more harmonious on a day-to-day basis.

That is perhaps true for Israelis - not really for Palestinians, though! The awful treatment they have been suffering at the hands of Israel is not a recent development but goes right back to the 1940s - even before the establishment of the state itself!

Yes, the early 80s might have seemed relatively harmonious if you were living in Tel Aviv - they most certainly would have felt a lot less so if you were Palestinian. Most famously, of course, the decade was essentially "kicked-off" by the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, which led to several large-scale massacres specifically of Palestinian refugees (this is, literally, how former Israeli PM Arik Sharon earned the nickname "Butcher of Beirut"). Moreover, the 80s saw quite the concerted campaign to expel Palestinians from Jerusalem as well as a doubling-down on colonising the West Bank with more and more settlements and what is arguably best described as "consolidating and professionalising" the military occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

It is for these reasons that, in 1987, the first Palestinian intifada started as the largest grassroots collective effort of resistance against what - to Palestinians - felt less "harmonious" and more like slow strangulation.

FWIW, almost all Palestinians I know do not hate Jews as such (though Israelis are often referred to as "yahood" (Jews) in colloquial Arabic - though "zayooni" (zionists) seems to be gaining in popularity these days, too). They all absolutely despise Israel, though. As you say yourself: given their experience, that is somewhat to be expected.

The initial statement about Israel having "behaved badly" was about the actions of the Israeli government/IDF (please note that I'm distinguishing between the actions of a government/military force and the general population - the actions of the former should not constitute a judgement on an entire country's population). Hence, I gave some examples of things documented to have occurred by those powers.

I would have thought it was pretty obvious by now where the actions of 7/10 fall on the spectrum of bad behaviour. An atrocity is an atrocity. We shouldn't minimise the actions of either Hamas or the Israeli government by using phrases like 'bad behaviour'. Both have committed horrendous acts, spread terror among innocent people, and are both continuing to do so instead of doing what needs done to free hostages, stop the killing of innocent civilians, start the processes for justice for the victims of the atrocities of both parties, and stabilise the region.

You ask if the US is a bad country because of the actions of US forces in Abu Ghraib, etc. I don't think any country is a bad country. To define an entire country by the actions of the people in power and people in its military is wrong. I think that many horrific actions occurred in the places you mentioned, and I think it would be reasonable to criticise and condemn decisions made by the government and military. That doesn't mean a country is a bad country.

I read earlier in the thread that you're Jewish, is that right? I understand how frightening it is to watch innocent people like you be murdered and abducted. I understand how upsetting it is to feel that everyone like you is being judged on the actions of a small group of individuals who do not represent the diversity and wider views that you know to exist in your faith or culture or ethnicity. I'm Muslim. Please know that I do not hate you, or Jews, or Israel. This Ramadhan, I'm praying for peace, not just for Gaza and Palestinians, but for everyone - for a ceasefire, the return of the innocent hostages, for justice through non-violent means.

@Scirocco ,

Yes, I am Jewish although pretty secular.

I was shocked and flabbergasted by Hamas’s actions, but also horrified by the pictures of IDF soldiers forcing doctors to strip and kneel in the dirt. Innocent civilians are innocent civilians regardless of religion or lack of it.

Jews (at least most I speak to) see Israel as a small country surrounded by hostile neighbours who want to destroy it.

Others see it as a regional superpower throwing its weight around, shielded by both the U.S and its own nuclear deterrent.

Both have elements of truth to them.

I do think Hamas isn’t a part of the solution, and Iran needs to butt out.

@Newbutoldfather you keep talking about the need to destroy Hamas through military means, but do you really think this is possible? It's an ideology that breeds from hardship, anger and marginalisation. There are no examples of terrorist organisations rooted in their own communities being destroyed in this way (Isis is often used as an example but it was a very different organisation without roots in the territories it held). You rightly talk about the traumatisation of the Israeli people from 7/10 but think of the scale at which this will have happened in Gaza - nearly the whole population is displaced and will have seen things that are the stuff of nightmares even if they have been "lucky" enough not to loose their close family. This, surely, is exactly the conditions that will drive young people into the arms of Hamas or it's successor. You might damage Hamas's capability and infrastructure in the short term, but you will have provided it with it's greatest strength - young men filled with hate and with nothing to loose. I really believe that the invasion of Gaza will have negative repercussions for Israel for generations to come.

And in one of your previous comments you suggest Abbas was responsible for the derailment of a two state solution - while undoubtedly there were faults on both sides Netanyahu has actually boasted that he brought an end to the Oslo Accords.