Conscription in Israel

[EasterIssland]

Just saw this in X.

YOAV GALLANT OFFICIAL STATEMENT

“We are paying a very high price in our ranks...The costs we incur in terms of the numbers of deaths and injuries are very high.”

“We have not witnessed such a war in 75 years, and this calls on us to approve amendments to the conscription law.”

@israelilefty 'This is not the reason. In Judaism it's also forbidden to murder of course, but war and self defence are completely different issues - which I assume is the case also in Christianity.'

I think Christianity has different branches, so it's not that killing in war is acceptable to all Christians. Some are pacifist, believing in 'turning the other cheek.' Some seem to ignore that instruction from Christ in the interests of war and self defence. The Quakers do not believe violence is ever justified even in war, for instance. I thought there may be a pacifist branch of thought amongst the orthodox Jewish tradition, but from what you say it is more that they do not want their young people exposed to a secular environment.

A bit off topic from the recent legislation, but I absolutely detest conscription.

Conscription only works in an ideal world, where every life is valued and those in power are truly acting with the best interest of everyone at heart, and they have the knowledge and skills to do this effectively.

Otherwise, I just see it as regular people being forced to become the sacrificial pawns of a self interested war lord.

I am against the young age of conscription in Israel, I see it as a form of indoctrination.

Also, because most people will have at some point been part of it, this may make it more difficult for them to critically asses the actions of the IDF.

I forgot to say, I see it as adding to an us and them narrative which aims to use fear as a control method, and which only causes further division, and makes violent conflict more acceptable.

It might be worth readimg the posts on this thread & reflecting on why conscription exists.

I had read and reflected on the posts. I am aware of the fear.

You might want to reflect on my points, which to me are not negated by an explanation of how, and why, conscription originated in Israel.

Do you not see these issues?

1. people as sacrificial pawns, without determination and at the will of leaders
2. fear as a control measure
3. the creation of an us and them narrative
4. young age of conscription and vulnerability to indoctrination
5. inability to critically evaluate military actions due to direct or felt participation

@PeasfullPerson in answer to your questions No, No, No, No and No.

The IDF is not a “self interested war lord” but the means by with a tiny country surrounded by hostile neighbours and with a powerful enemy (Iran) is able to ensure its continued existence. Which is not to say that all Israelis agree with all the IDF does - they don’t. But that the IDF, and conscription, are essential, is fully accepted, as explained in a number of ways on this thread.

And just to be clear - that threat is very real; it is not an irrational “fear” that has been indoctrinated into Israelis. The events of 7 October are the worst in a long series of attacks that have shown how real this fear is, and followed many years of Hamas rockets indiscriminately aimed at Israeli civilian areas. Very recently, as I assume you know, Iran launched 300 powerful missiles at Israeli civilians in one long barrage - the reason there was not extensive loss of civilian Israeli life was the co-ordinated actions of the IDF, working with the US, UK and the other nations who supported their defence, to destroy the missiles before they landed. Not to mention what is currently happening with Hezbollah in the north.

I’m guessing you have little experience of Israel or Israeli society if you think most Israelis are “indoctrinated” “controlled”, unable to think and evaluate situations critically or to speak up if they choose.

Can I suggest you are coming at this from a position of privilege - the privilege of living in a country that is not under continuous existential threat.

Have you ever lived in a country with a small population that has a much larger, historically aggressive country with a much larger military breathing down its neck?

Yes - position of privilege is the right description.

That sense of privilege shows itself in coming at the whole Middle East Region conflict from a Western perspective.

It simply can't be done as you have to look at it from the perspective of the people who live there.

How is the Western perspective different?

The MER doesn't have a Westernised culture......🧐

Western ways, ideas and concepts don't really work in that part of the world. Just look at how the Western powers handled Iraq and Afghanistan - very, very badly!

I wasn't clear. How is the Western perspective different on the invasion of Palestine?

No, people can be 'sacrificial pawns' in any context, regardless of conscription. Certainly doesn't apply in democratic Israel

Fear as a control measure doesn't seem to be working well considering how diverse Israel is and what a robust political & civic culture it it has. Not sure what conscription has to do with it.

Any Us & Them narrative that exists has its roots in the attempts of antisemites to exterminate Jews in the past & today, particularly orchestrsted by Iran. Conscription is a response, not a cause.

See above on the last two points, but again if these were issues they might exist with or without conscription. The reverse is also true. Those who have participated through conscription criticise the military from the perspective of firsthand knowledge. I would think it enables rather than undermines constructive discourse.

This thread is about the benefits or otherwise of conscription.

11NigelTufnel · 01/03/2024 13:43
I am surprised that no one has mentioned South Korea yet, as it was all over the headlines when BTS had to pause for their compulsory service

Most Korean men complain about having to do military service but my Korean friend says it means people from all backgrounds and incomes have to live and work together during their time in the army, and lasting friendships are made.
Those who aren’t physically fit have to do social work.
Winners of any Olympic medal are excluded, as are Asian Games gold medalists and some music prize winners.
I think there are also exemptions made for sons who have parents needing care.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6p24expzd5o

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-11/ty-article/.premium/first-conscientious-objector-of-the-gaza-war-freed-after-more-than-six-months-in-prison/00000190-a301-da1a-adf0-a79de1290000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=iOS_Native