Page 2 | Conscription in Israel

EasterIssland · 2024-02-29T10:39:44+00:00

Just saw this in X. YOAV GALLANT OFFICIAL STATEMENT “We are paying a very high price in our ranks...The costs we incur in terms of the numbers of deaths and injuries are very high.” “We have not witnessed such a war in 75 years, and this calls on us to approve amendments to the conscription law.”

fluffykittens208 · 01/03/2024 10:02

fluffykittens208 · 01/03/2024 09:55

I am from singapore. We have never been at war since independence but we have a very strict conscription of all men for two years plus reservist training every year until age 40 (government pays your wage). Men even have to pas physical fitness tests every year (which i suppose reduces obesity rates). People complain a lot about it because the girls don't need to do it and they feel that singaporean men are disadvantaged by it as they start university two years earlier.

However singapore is too small for a full time professional army and that is just the way things are. We only have to listen to our grandparents' stories about life under japanese occupation (when the british were responsible for defending us as we were a colony and we fell to the Japanese within a week) to realise that peace and the ability to defend yourself is something you shouldn't take for granted. . My grandfather was forced to carry bombs as an 11 year old and my grandma was only 6 years old but could hear her neighbour being raped by japanese soldiers. Her older siblings had to work for japanese factories so that the family could eat (her parents owned a jewellery shop but not much demand during the war), her oldest sister was hastily married off and the older sisters cropped their hair to 'reduce the risk of rape'. It was then we realised that only we could defend ourselves and when we were a newly independent state, the Israeli army trained our army and said that for us mandatory conscription regardless of class or educational background was the way to go (our leaders at that time were thinking of exemptions for those with university degrees or careers but the israeli military commanders said that was a bad idea). So basically every guy has to serve his two years and you can be put in jail if you don't serve. It is far more strict than Israel today, i have two relatives who are israeli by birth but came to live in israel as young men and they did not serve a single day! I find that a little shocking as irregardless of the law, singaporeans would regard a man who didn't serve(but was eligible for it) as somewhat irresponsible and unpatriotic and undeserving of singaporean citizenship. I suspect they didn't conscript girls because of social attitudes towards women in the 1960s and given there is no war now, there has been little driving force to do it.

Parents don't exactly dread it but see it as a rite of passage. Its seen as something we have little choice over but there are gripes on how the recruits' time could be managed and also accountability of superiors in the army. Almost all recruits have to be trained in combat unless you have pre-existing illnesses. It also enables men from different backgrounds to mix with each other as you are often lumped in with people you would ordinarily never socialize with and they do form strong bonds

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*sorry meant to say the singaporean men start university two years later!

TheABC · 01/03/2024 10:12

Britain has the luxury of being a small, wet island with few natural resources left and no aggressive neighbours, so our army is run on a volunteer basis. If France or Germany did start acting like Russia is now, I would expect our Government to start building up the forces and that would include a compulsory element. How else are we expected to defend ourselves? No matter how good the tech is, we still need boots on the ground (or on the ships).

Oakbeam · 01/03/2024 10:16

fluffykittens208 · 01/03/2024 09:59

My brother in law was born israeli but moved to israel in his early 20s and he didn't serve a single day. I think the social repercussions are quite severe though!

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As far as I am aware, my relative didn’t get a choice but didn’t find it too onerous as he had previously served in the British army.

BTW After independence, Singapore continued to rely heavily on Britain for defence until the 1970s.

In Britain young men could defer their National Service until after university. Cyprus temporarily allowed this to enable students studying in the UK to beat the Brexit deadline.

Jewishbookwork · 01/03/2024 10:17

A lot of immigrants to Israel choose to serve, even if they don't have to.

As was said, the social networks you build up in the army are invaluable.

EllaDisenchanted · 01/03/2024 10:21

GlossyPaper · 29/02/2024 16:15

How do parents in countries with military service feel? Do they dread the age of conscription or accept it because it’s just seen as normal in society?

I would be horrified if my kids had to train in the army, even for one year. But I guess where it’s normalised, it’s just part of life?

And do immigrants have to join if they came to the country as kids?

It is so alien a concept to me, but quite fascinating to learn about.

Yes, immigrants have to join if they came as kids- they are citizens. Immigrating at the age of recruitment (18+), whether they are required to join the IDF is extremely complicated and depends on a lot of factors. I’d say it probably ends up being almost individual case by case.

However, it’s often advantageous for young new immigrants (18+) to do so; they learn the language quicker, build a network of contacts, and learn a skill, and get paid.

how do parents feel? individual, and depends on the religious background they come from. I think this article reflects a lot of opinions I have heard, particularly this quote :
https://www.futureofjewish.com/p/when-israeli-soldiers-become-parents#:~:text=Israeli%20parents%20(like%20any%20other,enlist%20will%20cease%20to%20exist."Israeli parents (like any other parents) are fearful of and hesitant about sending their children to the army. Every generation of Israeli parents, who served in the IDF themselves, is eager that the “need” for their children to enlist will cease to exist."

For various reasons, some of my children are unlikely to be in combat units, two have automatic exemptions for ASD, although one says he wants to work on the iron dome because he wants to save lives. I don’t know whether the units that do that have enough possible adjustments to cope with his special needs though, so it just may not be suitable for him.

I’m pro the idea of national service in general, and would be proud of my child for serving, but as in all large organisations, there are issue and parts that give me great concern, and of course, if he joined a combat unit, I’d be very anxious. I’d love it if there was no more need for the army.

When Israeli Soldiers Become Parents

Israeli parents are eager that the "need" for their children to enlist will cease to exist. October 7th painfully reminded us that this "need" is still very much a part of Israeli society.

https://www.futureofjewish.com/p/when-israeli-soldiers-become-parents#:~:text=Israeli%20parents%20(like%20any%20other,enlist%20will%20cease%20to%20exist.

Parkingt111 · 01/03/2024 10:24

What about If a female fell pregnant at a young age, would she have to make up for the two years of service later or would she be exempt from it?

fluffykittens208 · 01/03/2024 10:24

Oakbeam · 01/03/2024 10:16

As far as I am aware, my relative didn’t get a choice but didn’t find it too onerous as he had previously served in the British army.

BTW After independence, Singapore continued to rely heavily on Britain for defence until the 1970s.

In Britain young men could defer their National Service until after university. Cyprus temporarily allowed this to enable students studying in the UK to beat the Brexit deadline.

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https://www.nlb.gov.sg/main/article-detail?cmsuuid=eb6f9fc3-51e8-4b19-b69c-a56416fbf76a#:~:text=On%2018%20July%201967%2C%20Britain,Singapore%20by%20the%20mid%2D1970s.&text=Six%20months%20later%2C%20the%20deadline,Singapore's%20defence%20and%20economic%20security.

'On 18 July 1967, Britain announced that it would withdraw its troops from Singapore by the mid-1970s.1 Six months later, the deadline was brought forward to 1971.2 The sudden pullout of British forces presented serious problems to Singapore’s defence and economic security. In response, Singapore embarked on a rapid industrialisation programme, tightened its labour laws to attract foreign investments, strengthened its defence through military cooperation with other countries, and tripled its military spending.3 By the deadline, Singapore had achieved strong economic growth and nearly full employment.4 Most of the British troops had moved out of Singapore by October 1971, leaving a token number behind. The last of the British troops left in 1976.'

They did withdraw earlier than expected. Singapore wrote to 10 different countries asking for help with defense and Israel was the only one which responded. Hence why there is still friendship and collaboration between both countries despite the fact that our immediate neighbours dont recognize israel as a country.

British withdrawal from Singapore

Article

https://www.nlb.gov.sg/main/article-detail?cmsuuid=eb6f9fc3-51e8-4b19-b69c-a56416fbf76a#:~:text=On%2018%20July%201967%2C%20Britain,Singapore%20by%20the%20mid%2D1970s.&text=Six%20months%20later%2C%20the%20deadline,Singapore's%20defence%20and%20economic%20security.

Oakbeam · 01/03/2024 10:31

They did withdraw earlier than expected. Singapore wrote to 10 different countries asking for help with defense and Israel was the only one which responded

You are forgetting the Five Power Defence Arrangement (FPDA). It has been in place since the main body of British forces left in 1971.

To quote the Singapore government…

“As the world’s second-oldest military partnership, the FPDA continues to maintain regional stability in the region. In 2016, Britain revealed plans to increase the number of deployed troops, warships and warplanes throughout the nations in the region.”

EllaDisenchanted · 01/03/2024 10:34

Parkingt111 · 01/03/2024 10:24

What about If a female fell pregnant at a young age, would she have to make up for the two years of service later or would she be exempt from it?

I believe you are exempted after motherhood, I doubt age makes a difference.

Only children (to one or both parents) are exempted from combat roles (except a few specific ones) and have to get special permission to serve in combat.

fluffykittens208 · 01/03/2024 10:36

Oakbeam · 01/03/2024 10:31

They did withdraw earlier than expected. Singapore wrote to 10 different countries asking for help with defense and Israel was the only one which responded

You are forgetting the Five Power Defence Arrangement (FPDA). It has been in place since the main body of British forces left in 1971.

To quote the Singapore government…

“As the world’s second-oldest military partnership, the FPDA continues to maintain regional stability in the region. In 2016, Britain revealed plans to increase the number of deployed troops, warships and warplanes throughout the nations in the region.”

there is also no specific commitment to intervene militarily. That is the crux.

UK doesn't have much global power anymore in any case. i found it hilarious that our MPs decided to vote on whether there should be a ceasefire in Gaza, because Israel is a sovereign country and would do as it sees fit (not that i necessarily always agree but thats besides the point). America's input has a larger impact but it doesn't really matter what UK thinks of Israel's actions.

Oakbeam · 01/03/2024 11:27

UK doesn't have much global power anymore in any case. i found it hilarious that our MPs decided to vote on whether there should be a ceasefire in Gaza

Hilarious? That’s an odd response to our MPs (albeit belatedly) showing support for a ceasefire in Gaza.

Does this list of other ceasefire supporters also provoke a similar hilarity? There are some small and comparatively insignificant countries on it.

anotherlevel · 01/03/2024 11:40

Thank you @EllaDisenchanted.

GlossyPaper · 01/03/2024 12:50

fluffykittens208 · 01/03/2024 09:55

I am from singapore. We have never been at war since independence but we have a very strict conscription of all men for two years plus reservist training every year until age 40 (government pays your wage). Men even have to pas physical fitness tests every year (which i suppose reduces obesity rates). People complain a lot about it because the girls don't need to do it and they feel that singaporean men are disadvantaged by it as they start university two years earlier.

However singapore is too small for a full time professional army and that is just the way things are. We only have to listen to our grandparents' stories about life under japanese occupation (when the british were responsible for defending us as we were a colony and we fell to the Japanese within a week) to realise that peace and the ability to defend yourself is something you shouldn't take for granted. . My grandfather was forced to carry bombs as an 11 year old and my grandma was only 6 years old but could hear her neighbour being raped by japanese soldiers. Her older siblings had to work for japanese factories so that the family could eat (her parents owned a jewellery shop but not much demand during the war), her oldest sister was hastily married off and the older sisters cropped their hair to 'reduce the risk of rape'. It was then we realised that only we could defend ourselves and when we were a newly independent state, the Israeli army trained our army and said that for us mandatory conscription regardless of class or educational background was the way to go (our leaders at that time were thinking of exemptions for those with university degrees or careers but the israeli military commanders said that was a bad idea). So basically every guy has to serve his two years and you can be put in jail if you don't serve. It is far more strict than Israel today, i have two relatives who are israeli by birth but came to live in israel as young men and they did not serve a single day! I find that a little shocking as irregardless of the law, singaporeans would regard a man who didn't serve(but was eligible for it) as somewhat irresponsible and unpatriotic and undeserving of singaporean citizenship. I suspect they didn't conscript girls because of social attitudes towards women in the 1960s and given there is no war now, there has been little driving force to do it.

Parents don't exactly dread it but see it as a rite of passage. Its seen as something we have little choice over but there are gripes on how the recruits' time could be managed and also accountability of superiors in the army. Almost all recruits have to be trained in combat unless you have pre-existing illnesses. It also enables men from different backgrounds to mix with each other as you are often lumped in with people you would ordinarily never socialize with and they do form strong bonds

Edited

Show quote history

That was a fascinating and sobering read. Thank you for taking the time. We are very very lucky here I guess that we don’t have compulsory conscription. And I’m really sorry to read about the experiences of your family. People can be so cruel.

GlossyPaper · 01/03/2024 12:50

fluffykittens208 · 01/03/2024 09:55

I am from singapore. We have never been at war since independence but we have a very strict conscription of all men for two years plus reservist training every year until age 40 (government pays your wage). Men even have to pas physical fitness tests every year (which i suppose reduces obesity rates). People complain a lot about it because the girls don't need to do it and they feel that singaporean men are disadvantaged by it as they start university two years earlier.

However singapore is too small for a full time professional army and that is just the way things are. We only have to listen to our grandparents' stories about life under japanese occupation (when the british were responsible for defending us as we were a colony and we fell to the Japanese within a week) to realise that peace and the ability to defend yourself is something you shouldn't take for granted. . My grandfather was forced to carry bombs as an 11 year old and my grandma was only 6 years old but could hear her neighbour being raped by japanese soldiers. Her older siblings had to work for japanese factories so that the family could eat (her parents owned a jewellery shop but not much demand during the war), her oldest sister was hastily married off and the older sisters cropped their hair to 'reduce the risk of rape'. It was then we realised that only we could defend ourselves and when we were a newly independent state, the Israeli army trained our army and said that for us mandatory conscription regardless of class or educational background was the way to go (our leaders at that time were thinking of exemptions for those with university degrees or careers but the israeli military commanders said that was a bad idea). So basically every guy has to serve his two years and you can be put in jail if you don't serve. It is far more strict than Israel today, i have two relatives who are israeli by birth but came to live in israel as young men and they did not serve a single day! I find that a little shocking as irregardless of the law, singaporeans would regard a man who didn't serve(but was eligible for it) as somewhat irresponsible and unpatriotic and undeserving of singaporean citizenship. I suspect they didn't conscript girls because of social attitudes towards women in the 1960s and given there is no war now, there has been little driving force to do it.

Parents don't exactly dread it but see it as a rite of passage. Its seen as something we have little choice over but there are gripes on how the recruits' time could be managed and also accountability of superiors in the army. Almost all recruits have to be trained in combat unless you have pre-existing illnesses. It also enables men from different backgrounds to mix with each other as you are often lumped in with people you would ordinarily never socialize with and they do form strong bonds

Edited

Show quote history

That was a fascinating and sobering read. Thank you for taking the time. We are very very lucky here I guess that we don’t have compulsory conscription. And I’m really sorry to read about the experiences of your family. People can be so cruel.

GlossyPaper · 01/03/2024 12:52

EllaDisenchanted · 01/03/2024 10:21

Yes, immigrants have to join if they came as kids- they are citizens. Immigrating at the age of recruitment (18+), whether they are required to join the IDF is extremely complicated and depends on a lot of factors. I’d say it probably ends up being almost individual case by case.

However, it’s often advantageous for young new immigrants (18+) to do so; they learn the language quicker, build a network of contacts, and learn a skill, and get paid.

how do parents feel? individual, and depends on the religious background they come from. I think this article reflects a lot of opinions I have heard, particularly this quote :
https://www.futureofjewish.com/p/when-israeli-soldiers-become-parents#:~:text=Israeli%20parents%20(like%20any%20other,enlist%20will%20cease%20to%20exist."Israeli parents (like any other parents) are fearful of and hesitant about sending their children to the army. Every generation of Israeli parents, who served in the IDF themselves, is eager that the “need” for their children to enlist will cease to exist."

For various reasons, some of my children are unlikely to be in combat units, two have automatic exemptions for ASD, although one says he wants to work on the iron dome because he wants to save lives. I don’t know whether the units that do that have enough possible adjustments to cope with his special needs though, so it just may not be suitable for him.

I’m pro the idea of national service in general, and would be proud of my child for serving, but as in all large organisations, there are issue and parts that give me great concern, and of course, if he joined a combat unit, I’d be very anxious. I’d love it if there was no more need for the army.

Show quote history

Thank you for this insight. It’s a really complex issue. And what a conflict for parents. National pride versus natural protectiveness.

11NigelTufnel · 01/03/2024 13:43

I am surprised that no one has mentioned South Korea yet, as it was all over the headlines when BTS had to pause for their compulsory service.

A previous person mentioned service in different countries. John Peel said in his autobiography that he was annoyed to be one of the last British men to have to do national service. Only then he moved to USA for a few years and wasn't called up to fight in Vietnam because he had already completed service.

DP is from another European country, but grew up here and only speaks English now. He was still called up foe service, and if he hadn't gone, would have found it very difficult to travel in Europe. He would have been arrested on entry if he had tried to go home. So he went to do his service and keep his passport. They did dismiss him early though, due to the language barrier.

0palfrootee · 01/03/2024 15:56

@fluffykittens208 that is fascinating, thank you for sharing.

fluffykittens208 · 01/03/2024 17:42

GlossyPaper · 01/03/2024 12:50

That was a fascinating and sobering read. Thank you for taking the time. We are very very lucky here I guess that we don’t have compulsory conscription. And I’m really sorry to read about the experiences of your family. People can be so cruel.

Show quote history

the only advantage of this is that the government then felt compelled to provide affordable government housing for the masses so that every singaporean man would have something to 'defend'. 85% of singaporeans live in government built flats which are subsidised which is why the home ownership rate is 89%.

From the hdb (singapore housing development board) website:

In 2022, 98% of 4-room flats launched in non-mature estates were priced below $400,000 (before housing grants) i.e. £235k
In 2022, more than 80% of new home owners who collected the keys to their new flats used less than 25% to service their HDB housing loans. This means they could pay their monthly loan instalments using CPF contributions, with little or no monthly cash outlay.
The House Price-to-Income (HPI) ratio for BTO flat buyers are generally around 4 to 5. This means that the flat’s price is within 4 to 5 times of the annual household income of the buyers. This is much lower than other major cities in the world (between 9 - 13 times for London, Los Angeles, Sydney; more than 18 times for Hong Kong)

You have to compare singapore to London as its a major financial capital and a city state. salaries are roughly the same too esp as taxes are much lower. I can't imagine something like this happening in the UK ; and I suppose it makes sense; the average British citizen has to sacrifice far less.

I did point this out to my British DH, while he has had to pay full market rate to buy our London flat, his only 'sacrifice' to attain this was having to live with his mum for 3 years which isn't too far off the 2 years(and years of reservist training) that every singaporean male has to serve in the army. And he didn't need to shave his head (all new recruits have to shave their heads)! However I do suppose that not everyone has a mum in London that they can live with rent free! swings and roundabouts I suppose.

We are more free in the UK but we can also expect far less. I do feel sad for israeli men who lay down their lives to defend their country but the government doesn't seem to care very much about the housing crisis in their country or the cost of living.

DomPom47 · 02/03/2024 08:19

What happens if someone who is called to serve disagrees with the reason behind the war and feels it is made up and refuses to serve or quite simply is a pacifist?

Original poster

EasterIssland · 05/03/2024 09:42

Is this the group that yoav gallant is trying to remove their exceptions?

https://allisrael.com/ultra-orthodox-jewish-men-clash-with-police-block-major-highway-over-calls-for-military-enlistment

Ultra-Orthodox Jewish men clash with police, block major highway over calls for military enlistment

https://allisrael.com/ultra-orthodox-jewish-men-clash-with-police-block-major-highway-over-calls-for-military-enlistment

OP posts:

stormy4319trevor · 05/03/2024 16:00

I don't know much about Jewish Orthodox beliefs, but in Christianity it's forbidden to kill, (though that was not observed in the past!) Maybe it's similar amongst Jewish Orthodox belief, which I would think is a valid reason for exemption.

Original poster

EasterIssland · 25/06/2024 11:38

I’m reviving this thread as there has been a changed on events about something we’ve spoken about

Israel’s top court rules ultra-Orthodox Jews must be drafted into military, in blow to Netanyahu

amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/06/25/middleeast/israel-orthodox-military-high-court-intl

OP posts:

israelilefty · 25/06/2024 13:32

stormy4319trevor · 05/03/2024 16:00

I don't know much about Jewish Orthodox beliefs, but in Christianity it's forbidden to kill, (though that was not observed in the past!) Maybe it's similar amongst Jewish Orthodox belief, which I would think is a valid reason for exemption.

This is not the reason. In Judaism it's also forbidden to murder of course, but war and self defence are completely different issues - which I assume is the case also in Christianity. Conscientious objectors (who object to all forms of warfare) are exempt from the draft in Israel, but people are not exempted just because of their opinion about a specific policy (eg they are against the occupation).

However, the reason the ultra-orthodox are against the draft is that the army is a melting pot for secular and religious Israelis, and they are afraid that if the ultra-Orthodox young people go to the army and mix with secular Israelis they will not be able to be as stringent in their religious practice as they would normally, or they would leave their community afterwards. This is really a real concern among ultra-Orthodox parents who value Torah learning above all, but it's very difficult to identify with for the rest of us who see certain young people being exempted from something that others have no choice but to do.

Dulra · 25/06/2024 13:40

israelilefty · 25/06/2024 13:32

This is not the reason. In Judaism it's also forbidden to murder of course, but war and self defence are completely different issues - which I assume is the case also in Christianity. Conscientious objectors (who object to all forms of warfare) are exempt from the draft in Israel, but people are not exempted just because of their opinion about a specific policy (eg they are against the occupation).

However, the reason the ultra-orthodox are against the draft is that the army is a melting pot for secular and religious Israelis, and they are afraid that if the ultra-Orthodox young people go to the army and mix with secular Israelis they will not be able to be as stringent in their religious practice as they would normally, or they would leave their community afterwards. This is really a real concern among ultra-Orthodox parents who value Torah learning above all, but it's very difficult to identify with for the rest of us who see certain young people being exempted from something that others have no choice but to do.

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I guess it is the similar issue all nation states face when it comes to secular vs religious society and how the two are not always compatible

MissyB1 · 25/06/2024 13:43

EasterIssland · 25/06/2024 11:38

I’m reviving this thread as there has been a changed on events about something we’ve spoken about

Israel’s top court rules ultra-Orthodox Jews must be drafted into military, in blow to Netanyahu

amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/06/25/middleeast/israel-orthodox-military-high-court-intl

I saw this, I'm shocked but not surprised - if that makes sense! How they are going to enforce it I've no idea, how do you make someone fight for you if they don't want to? They could all refuse - and accept a prison sentence.