Conscription in Israel

[EasterIssland]

Just saw this in X.

YOAV GALLANT OFFICIAL STATEMENT

“We are paying a very high price in our ranks...The costs we incur in terms of the numbers of deaths and injuries are very high.”

“We have not witnessed such a war in 75 years, and this calls on us to approve amendments to the conscription law.”

This isn't about secular vs religious - there are a lot of Orthodox Jewish soldiers in the IDF and certain parts of the religious community have the highest rates of conscription. It's about a specific sector of the Orthodox community striving to maintain an insulated way of life.

That's what I meant, a religious communities beliefs/ rules incompatible with the states.

One of the ways of enforcing it is economic - by ending government subsidies to the educational institutions that young men attend instead of going to the army, if they continue to take students who don't serve.

Hopefully however it can be addressed by compromise; among other things by finding ways for strictly Orthodox men to serve that arouse less fear of them leaving the community. Members of the community do volunteer/work for example in paramedic organizations and similar, so there's clearly some precedent for finding acceptable ways to serve the country. As noted elsewhere in the thread, not all Israeli soldiers are combat soldiers - a lot of roles like education that in other countries might be considered civil service are subsumed into army service (though there is also the option of civil service for those who don't serve in the army).

what would Israel want to change to avoid the deaths?

Drones? Robotic aircraft? Germ warfare? Let in fewer aid trucks and hasten starvation? Nukes?

@israelilefty that's interesting
Does the new conscription bill apply to females from the ultra orthodox community too or just males?
Also how would they get around things like uniform for females, who may prefer to wear skirts for example for religious reasons? Would there be enough non combat roles for everyone who must now be conscripted

Sorry just read the article and it seems to be just for men

When conscription was compulsory in the states during the world wars and Vietnam war the Amish community were offered non combatant roles along with consciousness objectors so no doubt similar may be facilitated here.

A few things to add to help answer some of the questions on this thread:

Firstly, in response to the first question, there have indeed been many soldiers killed, mostly by Hamas, not by friendly fire. Also some deaths from the ongoing conflict with Hezbollah in the north. Every soldier who dies is named in the national press. Not named in the press, are the many, many more who have been seriously wounded in combat.

Every school leaver except, until now, the exempt haredi (ultra religious) Jews does national service. Over the last year of school there is a thorough and intense process where each school leaver goes through various assessments - physical, academic, mental etc - and then applies for different roles within the IDF. The IDF is therefore able to fit roles to those with the best skills. In normal times, school leavers will then do their national service before going on to further study. They do regular camps thereafter, and act as reservists who can be called up if needed (as now). Religious women can and do choose to do community service in lieu of army service.

The Haredi issue with the army is twofold - it’s not just the exposure to the non-religious elements, it’s also that (hard to believe perhaps) some do not recognise and support the current State of Israel as it is too secular in their view. As those up thread have said, their exemption does cause significant resentment. I have family on both sides of this, and it is difficult.

Of course it’s hard for the parents - but it is part of living in Israel and fundamentally believing in Israel’s right to exist and to defend itself. I have a DN going into the army shortly, the family simultaneously accept and dread it. Like everyone with family in Israel I also have cousins who are reservists (in their 30s and 40s, married, with kids) who have had to do their bit in this awful conflict. Very hard on the wives and children, but again, accepted as necessary.

@DifferentNameForThisBoard
Thank you for the explanation
If students join straight after school, when do they go to university?
Is it after they have carried out compulsory service? And does the time in conscription then affect the number of students who will eventually apply for university?

@Parkingt111 they go to university afterwards. So most uni students are older than here (21+). When all the reservists were called up at the start of the war, the start of the university academic year was significantly delayed.

I don’t know if the process means fewer go to university than would otherwise. In my wider family, I think everyone has gone on to some sort of further education post military service, as it is the norm.

Uniform is the least issue :) There are already skirt options for religious women in the army - one mum at my kid's preschool is an officer and regularly picks up wearing an army uniform with an ankle length khaki skirt and hair covered with a black headscarf. Obviously this isn't an option for female combat soliders, but there are very few of those and it would be an unlikely choice for a religious woman.

Yes, most students begin much later than in countries where there's no service. It means there isn't really a culture of partying at university - many students are already working or starting a family. NB this doesn't apply to Arab Israelis, nearly all of whom don't go to the army (they are not drafted because of the conflicting identities) so they often go to university at 18.

@EasterIssland I haven't heard anyone here in Israel suggesting that friendly fire deaths were due to soldiers not being ready to go to war. Friendly fire is unfortunately part of the ugly reality of warfare, and the number of Israeli soldiers killed by friendly fire in the present combat is within a similar range as in other conflicts - around 15% of war deaths of US soldiers are from friendly fire.

Nobody wants to go to war but the vast majority of Israelis are ready to do so if called - on Oct 7 there was more than a 100% response to emergency call-up orders. These are not some kind of gung-ho crazies - I know fathers of preschool kids who work in hi-tech or are musicians who have spent more than half of the time since October doing compulsory reserve duty.

@israelilefty thank you!
Is there any resentment now towards Palestinian citizens of Israel who are exempt from conscription? Is it not seen as unfair?
I know they also don't recieve the bursaries that the religious students who were exempt do, but now they will be the only group who are excused.

Apart from the conflicting identities, are there other concerns which have led to the Palestinian citizens of Israel being exempt?

To answer both of your questions: I don't think there is any resentment. Jewish Israelis understand that you can't expect someone with social and familial links to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza to fight them (and there would certainly be concerns about loyalty to the army), so I doubt Palestinian-Israeli citizens will be drafted as long as the political situation is how it is. There are however some suggestions that civil service should be extended to Palestinian citizens who should spend a year contributing to their own communities, gaining skills etc. I believe that there is a divide on this issue within Palestinian-Israeli society.

NB The exemption of Arab citizens doesn't apply to all communities, for historical reasons. Druze Israelis and some Bedouins are currently drafted to the IDF, including as combat soldiers.

@israelilefty thank you for your answer

Exactly this. Israel was born out of the second world war when Jews faced an existential threat. The country countinues to face an existential threat, currently orchestrated by Iran. In such a situation conscription is practical & necessary and builds a sense of shared nationhood. I'm sure the vast majority would wish it were not so, but they don't have the luxury saying they wouldn't sign up or wouldn't let their children.

Sorry I jumped the gun a bit responding to an earlier point, then read your really interesting posts. Thanks @israelilefty @DifferentNameForThisBoard

Ultra orthodox Jews have not had conscription: more important that they study old scriptures it appears :( otherwise both males and females have to serve for two years from 18 years old.

Actually, men serve closer to 3 years (32 months). Women serve 2 years. Reserve duty is also compulsory up to age 40 (45 for officers or 49 for doctors).

Those who don't have to enlist also include married/pregnant women and those who are mothers, and also women who are religiously observant (a lot of religious women choose national service rather than army service, though many also choose to serve in the army). People can also be exempted from enlisting for medical/psychological reasons.

We have the same thing in singapore and no it doesn't affect people going to university..if anything it enhances their chance of getting into sought after courses or universities I.e. singaporean men basically have 3 shots at oxbridge as they apply while in the army and can apply with actual results while girls apply with predicted grades like in the uk.

Why do the ultra orthodox or observant women not want to do service, if a religious option is available?

There isn't a "religious option" available other than modest dress. I think the main reason is that the culture of the army is permissive and there is a lot of mixing of genders and it's seen as an inappropriate setting for a religious girl, who are generally brought up with strict ideas about modesty.

More generally, the service of women is a bit of a different issue, as very few women go into combat roles. Some units like intelligence are genuinely mixed, but often women end up doing administrative roles, or social service roles. Many religious women believe that they can contribute more meaningfully to their country via civilian service (eg volunteering in youth work, schools in underprivileged areas etc). Outside ultraorthodox society it is expected that a religious girl who does not serve in the army will do civil service. However, plenty of religious women do serve in the army.

I think the issue of ultra-Orthodox women serving would be a non-starter since they generally get married and start families very young so army service would effectively deprive them of any option to study post high school. Also what the army is currently concerned about is boots on the ground, not having more women for social and administrative roles, so I doubt they will make much effort to recruit more religious women.

Thanks to @EllaDisenchanted, @DifferentNameForThisBoard and @israelilefty for their interesting knowledge and insights on this issue. I've learned a lot!

This information is on the Israel Defence Force website:

"The State of Israel requires every Israeli citizen over the age of 18 who is Jewish, Druze or Circassian to serve in the Israel Defense Forces (although there are some notable exceptions). Other Israeli Arabs, religious women, married individuals, and those deemed unfit medically or mentally are exempt from compulsory military service. Regardless of those exemptions, many of those exempt from military service do volunteer to serve in the Israel Defense Forces. Once enlisted, men are expected to serve for a minimum of 32 months and women are expected to serve for a minimum of 24 months."