Conscription in Israel

[EasterIssland]

Just saw this in X.

YOAV GALLANT OFFICIAL STATEMENT

“We are paying a very high price in our ranks...The costs we incur in terms of the numbers of deaths and injuries are very high.”

“We have not witnessed such a war in 75 years, and this calls on us to approve amendments to the conscription law.”

First of all , I don’t want this to be another thread for idf good / bad. But more to understand the benefits of conscription, and how is this welcome in Israel.

there was not a long time ago news in the uk about something similar happening in the uk and people were really against it. I feel the same , no chance I’d be sending my son to a war in the name of my country (luckily he’s got double nationality so I’d force him to move to his other country).

I do feel as well that not every body is ready for war , that you have to like being part of the army and that the amount of deaths that are coming from both sides is because many of IDF members aren’t really ready to be part of a war.

im unsure whether any other country does conscription and in the event of a war they’d be sending them. My country stopped doing it before I was born so luckily nobody close to be went through it. My dad did it and whilst he’s got good memories it’s not the same as being sent to a war.

from this politicians words , what would Israel want to change to avoid the deaths? Does anyone know ?

France has National service I think

France used to but not any more. However, there is a requirement to register for compulsory service should it be required. The USA has the same requirement for men only.

Several countries in Europe have conscription. More worldwide.

Don't they do two years in Israel anyway?

Active combat roles in the IDF form only a small part of service. Conscripts can be in a wide range of support roles, such as electricians, intelligence, communications, logistics, religious, medical, clerical, hr, education, computer/tech etc. Advantages of service are (paid) training, so they come out of the army with a qualification and experience (e.g. someone I know was an electrician in the army, so he received training and worked towards his qualifications). Also a lot of networking, people build connections which are useful in careers afterwords. There is also sherut leumi (national service) as an alternative to serving in the IDF, set up for religious girls, programs include working in special ed, hospitals, education, with teens at risk, law, geriatrics. Again, provides experience which can be springboards to careers, networking, and structure post high school.

What Gallant is referencing is pushing for an end to the exemption to the draft for ultra orthodox hareidi yeshiva students, which is a highly contentious and polarising topic in Israel. (There are a number of automatic exemptions to service).

Singapore used to have compulsory conscription but just for males, not sure if they still do

Israel has always been a highly militarised country. Their attitude to conscription is not like ours in the West. Almost everyone (including women) has done military service so it is normal. It also means that many people continue to be reservists. They face ongoing existential threats like we did in the early 20th century when we too had conscription/military service.

Thanks @EllaDisenchanted for the info. The people that are currently in the war in Gaza, were they trained to be there or were I.e electricians / technology/ doctors like the ones you’ve mentioned? I just wanted to understand how many are in the war currently as they seem to be a lot, tho I guess in Israel there will be more for support / strategy supporting.

from his words it seems there are a lot of deaths / injures ? I read once many were killed by friendly fire which is why I was thinking whether all those in the war atm are trained to be in war.

First of all , I don’t want this to be another thread for idf good / bad.

Yeah sure you don't.

luckily he’s got double nationality so I’d force him to move to his other country

Not sure about Israel but in Finland this wouldn't necessarily exempt him. And I'm not sure how you'd force your adult son to move to another country, not exactly your decision.

im unsure whether any other country does conscription

Five seconds of googling could've told you.

Thanks for the reply. Really helpful.

Any time.

For those countries in the west … if you have national military service and there is a war , are you forced to go? As said , I come from a country where it’s not compulsory so all this is out of my knowledge

Your post and questions are reasonable. I am interested too. Ignore any closed-minded idiots who see every discussion as an attack on Israel.

Anyone in combat will have been trained in combat. As far as I know reservists who were in auxiliary roles will not go into combat roles, they would fill positions with their skills, or other roles. The most ‘combat’ type role I have seen a non combat idf reservist do personally is guard duty outside schools. (Security has been increased since oct 7th).

Medics who go into combat are trained for it, there are highly specialised units who are trained to drop into an active scene and pull out injured soldiers in an extremely short time frame.

the IDF publishes the names of soldiers killed in combat daily, once the families have been informed. They publish the figures as well. As of today, these were the figures :
“The names of 582 IDF casualties in the Swords of Iron War have been released for publication. Since the beginning of ground operations in Gaza on October 27, 2023, 242 soldiers have been killed in battle.”

the 582 total includes the IDF soldiers killed on October 7th I believe, as over 300 died. As of the 12th December, 20 had died in friendly fire. I haven’t see figures released since then

EllaDisenchanted thanks for your informative posts.

I did have some questions but they have been answered by this article from TTOI just a couple of hours ago

https://www.timesofisrael.com/gallant-say-no-haredi-draft-bill-without-centrist-support-risking-coalition-crisis/

Thanks once again. I remember being surprised when reading by the Fauda main character joining the war and also I believe a few of the crew members have been killed/injured. My surprise came as to me they’re actors hence why the confusion whether they had trained for the series and ready for the war. Makes sense that the doctors are kept as doctors and so those that choose to learn about combat are the ones in the ground.

Not everyone joins the reserves after mandatory service. Most people who stay in the reserves will be the soldiers from combat units. They have to do yearly training or sometimes are called up to train other soldiers/ help with operations. Their experience is considered an advantage. Normally, this is voluntary. In times of war there can be a mandatory draft of reservists.

other non combat units will call up reservists also, but not to the same extent as the combat units. Or I’d guess the medical/engineering corps.

I’d guess the Fauda actor likely did his service in a combat unit, despite his career after.

In Israel military service is compulsory, with some fairly rare exemptions, so it's nothing new to them.
In Europe, Latvia just brought back compulsory military service (Failure to comply with state military service obligations will be prosecuted in accordance with legislation of the Republic of Latvia. (Art. 15.) Under article 282(2) of the Latvian Criminal Code, the punishment for draft evasion could be a fine, community service, or imprisonment for up to one year).

I believe all the talk of compulsory draft in the UK was caused by the threat of the Orange Man ending up in the White House. If a NATO country (say, Latvia) is invaded and the US refuses to help, Europe doesn't have enough trained troops to defend itself.

How do parents in countries with military service feel? Do they dread the age of conscription or accept it because it’s just seen as normal in society?

I would be horrified if my kids had to train in the army, even for one year. But I guess where it’s normalised, it’s just part of life?

And do immigrants have to join if they came to the country as kids?

It is so alien a concept to me, but quite fascinating to learn about.

@EllaDisenchanted What happens if you refused to join? Would there be some kind of repercussions like jail time or a fine?

That’s what it seems like. I saw one the other day in Twitter but can’t find it on the news

there are a few related ones
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-59084408

https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/focus/20240125-israel-s-refuseniks-meet-the-conscientious-objectors-refusing-military-service

And do immigrants have to join if they came to the country as kids?

I expect so. A close relative of mine had to serve in the IDF when he moved to Israel as an adult.

I think depends on the reason (I’m really not an expert, and it’s a complex area). There are a large number of reasons for exemption, so if you refused to join on the basis of those, then that would be fine. E.g medical /mental grounds, some exemptions on religious grounds(easier for women than men) , female exemptions for pregnancy, there’s something to do with marriage, it’s possible to get an exemption as a conscientious objector, but it’s not common.
i looked it up and you can be jailed for refusing on political grounds , in military prison, for up to ten days. I don’t think the real deterrent is jail time, but the social consequences for having it on your record. Eg if in future they wanted a government job, or a weapons license, their record would go against them.

I am from singapore. We have never been at war since independence but we have a very strict conscription of all men for two years plus reservist training every year until age 40 (government pays your wage). Men even have to pas physical fitness tests every year (which i suppose reduces obesity rates). People complain a lot about it because the girls don't need to do it and they feel that singaporean men are disadvantaged by it as they start university two years earlier.

However singapore is too small for a full time professional army and that is just the way things are. We only have to listen to our grandparents' stories about life under japanese occupation (when the british were responsible for defending us as we were a colony and we fell to the Japanese within a week) to realise that peace and the ability to defend yourself is something you shouldn't take for granted. . My grandfather was forced to carry bombs as an 11 year old and my grandma was only 6 years old but could hear her neighbour being raped by japanese soldiers. Her older siblings had to work for japanese factories so that the family could eat (her parents owned a jewellery shop but not much demand during the war), her oldest sister was hastily married off and the older sisters cropped their hair to 'reduce the risk of rape'. It was then we realised that only we could defend ourselves and when we were a newly independent state, the Israeli army trained our army and said that for us mandatory conscription regardless of class or educational background was the way to go (our leaders at that time were thinking of exemptions for those with university degrees or careers but the israeli military commanders said that was a bad idea). So basically every guy has to serve his two years and you can be put in jail if you don't serve. It is far more strict than Israel today, i have two relatives who are israeli by birth but came to live in israel as young men and they did not serve a single day! I find that a little shocking as irregardless of the law, singaporeans would regard a man who didn't serve(but was eligible for it) as somewhat irresponsible and unpatriotic and undeserving of singaporean citizenship. I suspect they didn't conscript girls because of social attitudes towards women in the 1960s and given there is no war now, there has been little driving force to do it.

Parents don't exactly dread it but see it as a rite of passage. Its seen as something we have little choice over but there are gripes on how the recruits' time could be managed and also accountability of superiors in the army. Almost all recruits have to be trained in combat unless you have pre-existing illnesses. It also enables men from different backgrounds to mix with each other as you are often lumped in with people you would ordinarily never socialize with and they do form strong bonds

My brother in law was born israeli but moved to israel in his early 20s and he didn't serve a single day. I think the social repercussions are quite severe though!