"The only purpose of these marches is to intimidate British Jews" (part three)

[stomachamelon]

Carrying on from part two....

I don't understand how it can be perceived as 'insulting'? Why? Insulting to those that support terrorism?

Who is he insulting exactly? And why does he have to ' stand to the side' to protest ? Surely you agree that hamas need to be condemned ?

If anyone read his sign and felt insulted that's a bit of a tell.

Surely if you genuinely are just marching to support peace, it should be a given that Hamas are terrorists?
Meanwhile, back in the real world...

And if you're marching for a ceasefire you'd be pissed off that Hamas just rejected one?

If it gets the headlines it deserves. Hamas are no friend of Gazans, if you march for them you should march against hamas.

I disagree that not protesting how you'd like them to means the organisers do not have any particular interest in making Jews less anxious about the marches.

British Jews attend the protests, so whatever anxiety others feel, while understandable, should not stop the protestors wording their protest as they do.

Perhaps you should read the whole thread carefully, particularly the last few posts.

It's literally on the list

"No claiming 'there were some Jews there so it must be fine'""

As @noblegiraffe requested: No claiming 'there were some Jews there so it must be fine'"

No need to drag Jews into it in order to validate protestors wording their protests as they do, whatever that means.

I haven't said it must be fine. People are intimidated and scared of marches and protests. That is their experience. However it is not on the organisers to make their protest palatable or easy for those who object.

So what on my list do you object to? You think people should be allowed to dress up as Hamas? Chant problematic slogans? Boo McDonald's customers?

I remember in the 70s men saying that some women didn't mind a good belting by their husbands so bashing women must all be fine.

I also remember the marches after Tiananmen Square. There was no anger, no calls for retribution and blood. Just silent or singing marchers, often dressed in white, with candles demonstrating their shock and sorrow and calling for justice.

I'd be more tempted to go on such a march where the main impetus was peace, peace-building and a call to restore peace and justice across the ME.

I won't be attending any march where it is obvious that Jew hate and blame is the order of the day for many.

Even if I do not associate with such groups and individuals I would feel that I'd tacitly be condoning them by my presence.

I object to you thinking that people can try to derail or disrupt the protests without challenge. Trying to make it about Hamas is derailing and goady fucker behaviour. I also object to your assertion that a free Palestine is a threat to Jewish people.

Whoopee for you. Do you find it all a bit unpalatable? A free Palestine ruled by Hamas is a threat to Jewish people.

However it is not on the organisers to make their protest palatable or easy for those who object.

it is on the organisers to make sure any strident antisemitism, calls for violence or actual violence are called out and not welcome at the marches. Calling to globalise the intifada at the same time as calling for a ceasefire is antithetical

Trying to make it about Hamas is derailing and goady fucker behaviour

Derailing? Because they have no involvement? Are irrelevant?

object to your assertion that a free Palestine is a threat to Jewish people.

Where did I assert that?

Calls for a free Palestine long pre-date Hamas and will continue after Hamas is gone.

The organisers and protestors are subject to British law. They are filmed by the attendees and surveilled by the police. Where protestors are found to have broken the law, they are being arrested and prosecuted.

Thankfully the protests are mostly peaceful, law abiding and friendly.

Calls for a free Palestine long pre-date Hamas and will continue after Hamas is gone.
But what does this have to do with your previous objection to the assertion that a free Palestine is a threat to Jewish people? Which is not an assertion I’ve seen anyone make on this thread btw.

I don’t think the organisers are doing a particularly good job of keeping the protests on message or even getting their message across, if that message is supposed to be about a ceasefire and a peaceful, mutually beneficial and long-lasting resolution to the conflict.

Calling out hamas as terrorists is not goady fuckery. They terrorise Gazans too.
Shouting 'shame' or assaulting someone who names hamas for what they are is fuckwittery and makes you a terrorist sympathiser.
You want a ceasefire? Call for release of the hostages.

@quantumbutterfly Qua

I absolutely agree with what you have said and actually we will really be on course for a ceasefire once Hamas have been removed from power. I actually do question of we can legitimately call Hamas a governing body given the scale of their military defeat and possibly we can see some other governing body arising for the Palestinains ; one that is not hel l bent on murdering Jews in the most horrific ways possible.

I don't think it can be stated strongly enough that Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation that ordered one of the most violent inhuman atrocities in modern history. In this country we should have no compunction in condemning this evil and the sight of someone holding a sign with a self evident truth 'Hamas are terrorists' being arrested is deeply concerning.

It makes me wonder if many of the protesters die ish to see the continuance of Hamas and believe they can be a legitimate part of the Palestinian people. Israel will refuse to be a party to any lasting peace that involved negotiation with terrorists so the eradication of Hamas is the route to a ceasefire. Hamas standing down and the release of hostages would be the only sure route to what the protesters purportedly wish - a ceasefire.

The fear is that the protesters don't really wish a ceasefire in a conflict but just support for one particular side (one governed by terrorists). and some of the songs are basically calling for vengeance on Israel for the current incursion i.e. another October 7th? Can people please reflect on the motivation of these marches before they participate and have some empathy with what the Jewish community must feel when week after week they see the streets of the capital filled with those that are a giant them.

There may actually be a ceasefire in the next few months because one thing that is not reported widely is that Hamas are being systematically destroyed as military force. Tunnelsl are being exposed, rocket launch sites being destroyed, Hamas leaders killed.

If the final remnants of Hamas are eradicated in Rafah and the senior Hamas leadership flee, caught or killed then what then. We would have a ceasefire as we would have an Israeli accomplishment of its military goal.

A new body would then have to represent the Palestinian people in the restoration of peace.

What then for the protests? Will there be celebration of the end of hostility apparently yearned for or as is possibly likely the protests may become a movement for revenge for the defeat of Hamas and more generally a way to call for more terrorist action against Israel under the guise of 'resistance'.

I think that there is a concern that even when hostilities cease there will still be some that do not view this as a good thing and will in some way advocate for continued Palestinian uprising and by extension actions against Israelis and maybe Jews abroad.

This is not the way to peace.

People like you put me off joining the marches. I would be on those marches in order to March for peace and ceasefire. I can’t March alongside terrorist supporters. If you regard criticism of Hamas as goady and derailing you’re not a supporter of peace and you’re definitely contributing to the intimidation of British Jews.

I object to you thinking that people can try to derail or disrupt the protests without challenge.

The marches take place in a public space, and the marchers don't own that public space. They have no right to dictate how others respond to them, if that response is legal. Thinking otherwise is unbelievably arrogant.

I'm almost certain that everyone posting on this thread would be delighted to see a peaceful and successful two state solution implemented so I'm unsure why you're implying otherwise.

I think everyone would delight in a defeat of Hamas and there was a moving letter put forward by the victims of terrorism that we all should be united against terrorism and not focus on religion or ethnicity. Hamas are terrorists and we should be united in our condemnation and the goal of their defeat.

A ceasefire and hence cessation of civilian casualties will come eventually and I think we all look forward to that but and it's a big but a ceasefire and lasting peace cannot come about if a terrorist organisation whose purpose is to kill Israelis remains as representative of the Palestinian people. The ceasefire advocates on these marches should be aware of this and advocate for the removal of Hamas as a path to a ceasefire otherwise they are in danger of being labelled terrorist symapthisers.

My fear with all of this is that when there is a ceasefire in Israeli terms with Israeli security prioritised then the marches may or may not stop but we will be left with a legacy of embedded anti semitism within our society with random abuse ot Jews becoming somehow acceptable because of events in Gaza. I think some (definitely not all) of the marchers at that point will pivot away from calls for a.ceasefire to calling for resistance to Israel; a euphemistic way of supporting further terrorist action. It is this morphing of solidarity with the Palestinian people to a more perfidious call for armed resistance (including terrorism) as the only.resort that is of concern. We have to be realistic and there will be swathes of the Palestinian people that will want revenge for the current incursion and this desire for revenge may seep into some elements of British society with dire consequences. A ceasefire cannot be built on a notion that Palestinains can organise more terrorist atrocities or allow themselves to governed by a group like Hamas as they have a right to vengence under the guise of fighting oppression. I ask you how can that lead to any thing good?