Standing up for Israel

[Fizzadora]

So, they have got to MN now too.
I just managed to read the previous post before it got deleted for being inflammatory. Not to me it wasn't but then I don't support terrorists.
Many, many people do stand for Israel and not for Hamas (and by definition their supporters; you know who you are).

What are your views?

Thank you, it is helpful to hear someone say that isn't what standing with Israel means to them.

Imagine the abuse if a pro Palestine poster refused to condemn Hamas as demanded.

This place is wild 😂

They'd be straight on it

This

There was no test. Just a simple question, asking whether when people say they stand for Israel, is that what it means for them?

It has seemed to be a commonly encountered view on the streets of my area and on some channels of social media. I was interested in whether that is what it means to people posting on this board.

I'm relieved to know that 2 people whose posts I have read and respected have felt able to say that isn't the case for them.

To people actually facing this on a daily basis, it does actually mean something to see someone say that is not what they believe.

@Scirocco I stand with Israel as someone non-Israeli but Jewish, so with a vested interest in the long term survival of the world's only Jewish state. That's it. That's what being pro-Israel means to me. I want Israel and Israelis to have a positive future and the extremists to be relegated to the margins. While I utterly despise Hamas and reserve most blame for them for the current situation, I do not stand with Israel's Oct 7th 'revenge' or indeed its long-term settler policy, and I'm unequivocally pro-ceasefire, but it has to be a negotiation that is realistic (e.g. all hostages returned).

I think you will find there are a lot of 'pro-Israel' posters on here with similarly moderate views but it is very, very difficult to find a space to be heard that isn't one side or the other because the discussion is so polarised and some (many) are enslaved to a binary view that makes understanding between 'both sides' absolutely impossible. And I see a huge amount of unchecked antisemitism so I refuse to join in with the 'isn't Israel awful' discussion with these posters. You may not recognise the antisemitism that we do, but the hostility towards Jews on the ME threads has been appalling, and deeply, deeply insidious, making it hard to report (this isn't the thread to discuss this anyway, just an explanation as to why I, and I'm sure many others, don't feel comfortable with jumping on board with the anger towards the Israeli govt, even when I feel it myself, because I simply won't engage with antisemites).

I would also add that @EllaDisenchanted's words are considerably more worthy than mine given that she lives in Israel, so I would urge posters to take her views on board.

"I do not stand with Israel's Oct 7th 'revenge' or indeed its long-term settler policy, and I'm unequivocally pro-ceasefire, but it has to be a negotiation that is realistic (e.g. all hostages returned)." @LaDernièreChanson

The last deal that was on the table would have returned all the Israeli hostages. And it wasn't even calling for a permanent ceasefire which Israel won't countenance, just a truce with a view to working towards a permanent ceasefire.

But Netanyahu called it delusional and said he wanted "complete victory". So people continue to be slaughtered and the hostages stay where they are. It's so sad.

Well to be fair, this forum is to share opinions and to debate. If you don't want to do that, then this is not the place for you.
Firstly, I was brought up to have the courage of your convictions, meaning that if you stand for anything, you should be prepare to explain why; otherwise don't say anything. It isn't always easy to do, I will admit.
Finally, standing for Israel can mean many things, I guess. But if you stand for what the Israeli government is doing, then say it.

@Vakarian Do you support or do you condemn the atrocities of the Israeli government and IDF?

That's new to me but I have asked on numerous occasions questions to Pro Israeli government posters which have always remained ( bar one poster) unanswered. Their silence speaks volume to me.

Really that’s awful 😣 he seems really bloodthirsty and it’s not in the interests of the hostages either. When will this end ?

If you haven't watched it, I would actually recommend watching it. I didn't create it or post it, but I think it's a pretty accurate summary of some of the views I and people I know regularly encounter.

@EllaDisenchanted I respect the way you have expressed your point of view. I stand with humanity, I think, as anything else is taking a side and furthers division. I read and cried over Primo Levi, visited Anne Frank's house and watched films concerning the holocaust. I have no doubt that Jewish people need Israel, and I found much to love about the energy, ingenuity and dedication present in the people and the land. I also find the situation of Palestinians tragic, and the continued expansion into occupied territories unjust. I also feel sad for the ancient Christian community in Jerusalem, Gaza and the WB, in the birthplace of Christianity being attacked and under siege at Christmas itself. I believe there will be no peace until all people there have equal rights and opportunities. I don't know how that is to be achieved, but it's imperative for everyone to find peace. Not peace kept by force of arms, but peace kept by justice and equality.

Lord Wolfson's speech in the House of Lords

www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/3GRo4lXDMv

My views are broadly similar to those expressed by EllaD and DerniereChanson above. In fact I have expressed those views multiple times on MN (as have others) and had my words picked over and twisted then thrown back at me while accusing me of supporting genocide. Or sometimes just ignored.

Just who do certain posters think they are, coming on this thread and demanding several times that people who are Jewish or supportive of Israel's right to self-defence state their views? Unbelievable.

He is saying that calling Israel out for the killing of 30,000 (in Gaza alone) and the displacement of millions is "singling Israel out"? Which I presume is an indication of anti-Semitism? So if we care about the Jewish people we should turn a blind eye to genocide of another group?

And he's also bringing up "the river to the sea", which he believes is racist when Palestinians use it, though I presume he finds nothing racist about it being in the Likud party charter ("Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan river there will only be Israeli sovereignty.")

I would largely agree with your last paragraph. However I don't think it's unfair considering the hundreds of posts where anyone sympathising with Palestinians were demanded to make their stance wrt Hamas clear. Who do they think they are?

@0palfrootee hardly demanding - I asked. As someone who has tried to show compassion and support for innocent civilians in both Israel and Palestine. As someone who, despite that, has been told by multiple people that when they say they are standing with Israel that they consider me and people like me to be "subhuman scum" and similar phrases, and that I should be killed - that people I cared about deserved to die horribly and I should join them. As someone hoping that I wasn't wrong when I've been saying that isn't what everyone means.

My confidence in the interfaith bridges I've tried to build and the efforts I've put in to trying to encourage people not to see each other as the enemy when I believed we mostly wanted the same things, was badly shaken after some events in real life today. I'm relieved that some people on here at least don't seem to share those views, but I don't think it's unreasonable, when that's the view of many people I've encountered, to question if I'd been wrong all along.

@Scirocco that's awful. Surely not on here?

As someone who, despite that, has been told by multiple people that when they say they are standing with Israel that they consider me and people like me to be "subhuman scum" and similar phrases, and that I should be killed

@LilaDidIt I watched it before I posted it.