Towards a sustainable peace

[mids2019]

I think for a peace to be obtained constructive dialogue has to be started but in order for this to happen in my opinion Palestine has to acknowledge and their leaders publically denounce the heinous acts of October 7th and make clear such an event will never be repeated.

There have been to many senior Palestinian politicians wishing their grievances to be heard without mentioning October 7th and this will only have the effect of enraging Israel.

We need Palestinian leadership that is willing to sit down with Israeli leaders and from the outset denounce violence specifically making it absolutely clear there will be no 'revenge' for the current Israeli incursion.

We also need to be pragmatic and understand Israel will not be giving Gaza any financial aid so it will be up to the richer gulf states primarily to discuss funding some sort of rebuilding within Gaza. Also eventually there needs to be opportunities for Palestinians to emigrate in order to gain jobs and allow future generations to thrive. I think ultimately you would have to view Gaza as a city state with a multi million rebuilding package coming from those supportive nations in the middle east.

We also need to ensure education in Gaza is such that anti semitiism isn't promoted from a young age so we have a chance for a generation of Palestinians growing up knowing the only way forward is peace.

I think there is a peace to be had if both sides want it and are willing to negotiate positivist with a commitment to prevent terrorism and ensure there is security for both parties.

And this a a fundamental problem as the people of Gaza are not allowed to travel between the West Bank and back, they can’t see friends and family as they can’t get out of Gaza, I’m not just talking about since oct 07, this is their reality.

Hmmm…. like the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 ?

No, like all the other attacks by Palestinians on Israelis that happened before 1967. Unsure if you're trying to pretend they never happened or just trying to be funny?

Strike that ... misunderstood you and wrongly understood that you were saying King David was a Palestinian attack against Israelis.

And, yes, of course there was Palestinian resistance, including armed resistance, before 67. Hundreds of thousands had been forcibly evicted from their homes, after all!

@Livinginanotherworld

still would mean a capital for the Gaza strip?

@Livinginanotherworld
in your opinion what would satisfy the Palestinians for peace? I suppose ultimately you don't want to be in the same situation in 5 or 10 years time.

I think our definition of "resistance" might differ quite a lot. Shooting unarmed civilians on buses doesn't seem so much resistance as it does terrorism.

Anyway, yes, it wasn't me pretending the attack on the King David Hotel was by Palestinians, that was the other poster trying to be funny. I tend not to rewrite history like that.

The Gaza Strip is part of Palestine. So its capital would be the same as the capital of the rest of Palestine.

Just like the capital of Kaliningrad is the same as the capital of the rest of Russia.

Being an exclave doesn't change a territory's status as part of a country.

Exactly.
i saw a video yesterday about an omani enclave inside UAE and inside this Oman enclave there is an UAE enclave
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madha

@Scirocco

who to govern.? I guess the P LO could establish a seat of government in East Jerusalem but are there political differences between the West Bank and Gaza. Sounds like some sort of democratic restart for the Palestinian territories would be necessary.

one challenge I feel is setting free and fair elections for a Palestinian state when there have been major challenges before and having this democracy robust enough to avoid deposition by extremist groups.

I read about this again yesterday and I don’t think it’s a good idea. Israel should have 0 control over Gaza / Palestine in any way
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/05/israel-defence-minister-yoav-gallant-gaza-plan-after-war-hamas-palestine-control-antony-blinken-visit

As this is a thread about sustainable peace, I implore you to try and think of it from Israel's point of view for just one second. There will be no sustainable peace if Israel doesn't feel safe. That's just a fact. So what do you suggest? Bearing in mind UN being solely in charge of security wouldn't be an appropriate option either because of their bias.

I am not trying to be goady or antagonistic in any way. I genuinely just don't understand how there will be sustainable peace if Israel feels unsafe. That doesn't meant I put Israel's wants, needs or well-being ahead of that of the Palestinians, I am just being realistic. Maybe some kind of army that isn't made up of Israelis but still sort of controlled by Israel if that makes sense?

International, independent peacekeepers would be an option to help stabilise peace and help Palestine rebuild and establish new systems. I appreciate that some people have expressed concerns about the UN, but it's worth remembering that their security council spent a very long time refusing to issue even a resolution calling for humanitarian aid and one of the main powers in the UN is the US, which is very clear about its own preferences in this situation. I personally don't like the idea of UN leadership because the US has demonstrated they can unilaterally prevent action and that they are not impartial, and because Palestine should be governed by Palestine.

One country having control of another country's security is not a recipe for peace. It doesn't respect sovereignty.

There are political differences between people in all countries.

Given that Gaza has been largely pulverised and large chunks of the West Bank are under occupation, independent peacekeepers would probably be the best option to oversee rebuilding and free elections.

One of the big challenges facing government of Palestine is that people can't freely travel or build connections between the West Bank and Gaza - allowing better communication and travel (with appropriate systems in place) would aid in reducing senses of isolation and rejection which can leave people vulnerable to extreme influences.

Bearing in mind UN being solely in charge of security wouldn't be an appropriate option either because of their bias.
If you’re worried about bias then Israel being in charge isn’t great either. Fairly certain Israel is biased towards Israel.
If we want to be realistic about this the Palestinian territories are probably not stable enough to self rule. You can’t just go from being controlled by other agencies (Israel, Hamas) to autonomy. Some form of intervention from the UN probably would be necessary.

I agree with @EasterIssland and @Scirocco that Israel should not be part of Gaza in any way after the war.
International peace keepers that are a combination of countries who have Israel and Gaza's best interests at heart could be a starting point temporarily until a new election and Gaza can be self governing

I have seen the way the IDF treat the Palestinians in the occupied territories which in itself is a boiling pot which could explode. The IDF in Gaza again would be no different.

I know Israel will be biased towards Israel 🙄 Stop talking to people as though they're idiots, it's quite unpleasant.

I agree with the rest of your comment though. At the moment, if Palestinians were allowed a vote they'd vote for Hamas or a group with similar genocidal intentions towards Israel. That's obviously not going to lead to sustainable peace.

I don't know what the answer is and I hate the idea of them not having autonomy for even longer. I just don't know how else things can possibly move forward. It's a truly fucked up situation.

I know Israel will be biased towards Israel 🙄 Stop talking to people as though they're idiots, it's quite unpleasant

Except you’re the one being rude.

If you know Israel is biased towards Israel why do you think it’s ok for Israel to be in charge.

@Humdingerydoo how do you know what people would vote for, are you an expert on the political preferences of Palestinians?

If the UN are to move in from which countries should the troops be drawn?

Is there a possibility of they are drawn from nations like the US they themselves could be a target for terrorist action?

Will the U.N. not want to look like they are facilitating Israeli occupation by proxy i.e. Dealing with residual Hamas operatives within Gaza?

To have respect within Gaza should the peace keeping forces come for.Arab nations solely?

Will Israel trust the U.N. given its current fraught relationship?

I suppose the idea is that instead of the IDF providing security the U.N. would do so but this will only be feasible in a non active war zone and so the U.N. may need terms of engagement against Hamas if they still see themselves as an authority in Gaza.

There needs to be a clearer steer from Israel to how close they are to achieving their military objectives.

@Humdingerydoo

the massive challenge is that it would be disingenuous to think Palestin Ian wouldn't be hell bent on revenge hence peace is ambitious currently but should obviously be the goal.

The Paelstinains may want a response given civilian casualties in Gaza and there needs to be a means to prevent this happening so a lot of thought needs to be put into his power is transitioned to Palestinians so Israel isn't again threatened. To my mind that will need some sort of peace imposition and a measured approach to Palestinian self determination.

I'm basing that on opinion polls and what seemingly every expert says. If you have information that would indicate that they are all wrong then I am more than happy to take that into account. I feel like you're going to pounce on anything I say, everyone is very aggressive on this board today.

@theoldweirdalbion I don't think Israel being in charge is ok. I'm asking what the alternative is as I can't personally see a better one if sustainable peace is truly what people are after.

Edited to add - I'll include myself in posters being aggressive on here today 🙈 my back is clearly up!

I've changed it the other way for you, as it applies equally doesn't it?

As this is a thread about sustainable peace, I implore you to try and think of it from Palestine's Israel's point of view for just one second. There will be no sustainable peace if Palestine Israel doesn't feel safe. That's just a fact.

Do you think they'll feel safe with their 'security' managed by the same people that pulvarised their society, killed their children, and arguably committed genocide against them.

Suggesting that Gaza should put up with the IDF in charge of security is as perverse an idea as Israels security being managed by Hamas.

Will the U.N. want the job? Peace keeping in reality will mean suppression of any residual military activity by Hamas not defending against the IDF. U.N. peace keepers would need to potentially neutralise Hamas fighters setting up rocket launchers and if there are civilians in the surround that would be a dimemma. I don't know if the U.N. would want to be seen doing the IDFs job given that UN workers have died in the conflict and the U.N. won't want to be facilitating any position which meant further hardship for the Palestinians.

Maybe peace keeping has to be done by Arab nations that we 'relatively' cordial with Israel (?) but Israel would want some guarantee they were up to the job of maintining security.