Towards a sustainable peace

[mids2019]

I think for a peace to be obtained constructive dialogue has to be started but in order for this to happen in my opinion Palestine has to acknowledge and their leaders publically denounce the heinous acts of October 7th and make clear such an event will never be repeated.

There have been to many senior Palestinian politicians wishing their grievances to be heard without mentioning October 7th and this will only have the effect of enraging Israel.

We need Palestinian leadership that is willing to sit down with Israeli leaders and from the outset denounce violence specifically making it absolutely clear there will be no 'revenge' for the current Israeli incursion.

We also need to be pragmatic and understand Israel will not be giving Gaza any financial aid so it will be up to the richer gulf states primarily to discuss funding some sort of rebuilding within Gaza. Also eventually there needs to be opportunities for Palestinians to emigrate in order to gain jobs and allow future generations to thrive. I think ultimately you would have to view Gaza as a city state with a multi million rebuilding package coming from those supportive nations in the middle east.

We also need to ensure education in Gaza is such that anti semitiism isn't promoted from a young age so we have a chance for a generation of Palestinians growing up knowing the only way forward is peace.

I think there is a peace to be had if both sides want it and are willing to negotiate positivist with a commitment to prevent terrorism and ensure there is security for both parties.

They’ve pivoted to now using the language of “voluntary” migration. ie we will make Gaza so uninhabitable that people will have no choice but to leave or face death and starvation.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-in-talks-with-congo-and-other-countries-on-gaza-voluntary-migration-plan/?fbclid=PAAabd6pcFGMJWSFWmOvPkrSpIdp9y-jmdMIxdUG81hHIz2u2o7mxwCT3Ew2E_aem_AQxV2IetItxR_brevMEwtJYemUw1LR8fBG2cypb2q91hMZCFGxlXb4XyihOAHj6vrQg

I must have missed where they called for ethnic cleansing. Can you post links please?

Also, I live in a country with a proportional representation system and though I am not a fan of the current coalition I know without a doubt that a Minister would be sacked for calling for ethnic cleansing. Even if it brought down the government.

I am from a country with proportional representation. There is absolutely no way the government would sacrifice itself for the sake of one extreme minister. In fact, much like in Israel the government is a coalition with a more moderate party in charge overall but with right-wing extremists (the national democrat party of that country) as part of government as well. The majority of the members of the more moderate party want nothing to do with the extremists but the leader of the party wants to be the leader of the country, so there we go. It happens all the time.

I'm glad I live in a country where this would not be tolerated.

Most of all, I think we should be grateful we don't live in the Netherlands right now with Geert Wilders' party winning more votes than any other parties. Seeing as he has amongst other things previously called for settlers to build more settlements in the West Bank... Not only not fired, actively elected.

Well that's not Israel. There's definitely something hugely amiss in Israel if everyone apparently disagrees with him but he stays on in his post.

I mean a lot of the Israeli government support extremist settlers in the West Bank too? If they didn't they wouldn't be supported in continuing to take people's land? That's still happening.

@Humdingerydoo stated: Yes, plenty of people. Your average Joe as well as government officials. That's the beauty of a democracy - lots of different voices that are heard and can oppose the insanely extremist views of a vocal minority.

There may indeed be "plenty of people". The West Bank ethnic cleansing is not an insanely extremist position. It has been the de facto policy of democratic Isreal for decades. Don't pretent otherwise.

It might not be your cup of tea, but why not read the Gordon blog carefully, and reflect on it. https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2023/october/ethnic-cleansing-in-the-west-bank

The "beauty of a democracy" ....

I’m trying to imagine members of an extremist party, say the BNP, in government. They would probably say endlessly offensive and racist things. I don’t know if they would be sacked if they were elected. It would be seen as a reflection of the views of the people who voted them in.

No, it has not been policy or de facto policy for decades. Just because you say something doesn't make it true.

Did you know that Jews used to live in Gaza? And I don't mean settlers. There's a synagogue there that's over 1500 years old. Just, you know, if you want to talk about ethnic cleansing.

I don't support any kind of ethnic cleansing anywhere. My family have gone through it ourselves. I just dispute that that is what's happening now, and I'm fed up with people spreading unnecessary hatred. There's enough legitimate stuff to be concerned about, there's no need to make stuff up as well, or be overly alarmist.

@Humdingerydoo "Just because you say something doesn't make it true." ... that's amusing ... and then you do just that ... "No, it has not been policy or de facto policy for decades"

Based on your previous posts I think your position is very clear. You support the actions of democratic Israel in the West Bank.

@Humdingerydoo tbf what @OneToFive posted about what happened to the Palestinians by the settlers actually made me feel a little ill reading it.

I understand there is alot of concern right now but I don't think it's baseless. It would be easier for me to dismiss if it was just coming from Ben Gvir and Smotrich but it's coming from other ministers too such as the intelligence minister which I posted about the other day.
Its the forced displacement that is a concern for me. Yoav Gallant clarified yesterday that there will be no settlements in Gaza so that is a step in the right direction atleast but his whole speech overall was not very positive and I don't think it's a plan the Palestinians will willingly accept
There has been many ministers now who have said that the goal is to make Gaza uninhabitable so that the Palestinians have no choice but to leave. It might not be official policy but it does seem to reflect on the actions of the IDF in Gaza right now and with the ammunition being used that is causing wide spread destruction of infrastructure

@Humdingerydoo You response is exactly as I would have predicted.

If that's your take home message you've clearly not read any of my other posts, including the one further up this page where I say I'm glad I'm not facing the prospect of Geert Wilders as my leader 🙄 I clearly don't have a right wing agenda if that's the case.

The poster was saying it's de facto policy. It isn't. That's all I'm disputing here.

Also, maybe be mindful of who things you're reading are written by. The author is someone who wants a one state solution. That's someone with pretty extreme views of his own.

Well done, you! Here, have a medal 🏅

@Humdingerydoo I don't deserve it 😀It was too easy. Instead why don't you donate it here:

@Humdingerydoo fair point
Although I have read about how this family were forced off the land by settlers elsewhere too.
I believe it was even reported in MSM but without the additional details of the nature of the violence that took place
They still haven't been able to return back to the land and have not only lost their home and land in such a unjust manner but also their livelihood.
This incident only occurred in the last two months so not a historical grievance but rather a continuation of decades of settler violence that goes unchecked most of the time by the government.

Which again I know that you are also against.

No, it has not been policy or de facto policy for decades. Just because you say something doesn't make it true.

Did you know that Jews used to live in Gaza? And I don't mean settlers. There's a synagogue there that's over 1500 years old. Just, you know, if you want to talk about ethnic cleansing

Settlers refers to Israeli’s who build settlements in the occupied territories (Gaza and the West Bank). It doesn’t have much to do with who lived where prior to 1948.

I have no idea whether the behaviour described in the blog is condoned by the authorities but I sort of suspect it is really. The government is itself largely right wing and the IDF allegedly treats its detainees in a similar manner.

I know who settlers are, thanks. Other posters seem to think any Jew in the middle east is a settler though, and it's winding me up. You "have no idea" but you "sort of suspect" isn't good enough, to be honest. I hope you see that.

And yes, @Parkingt111 I am very much against illegal settlements, illegal settlers and any violence they use. People (to be clear, in this case I'm talking about Palestinians) shouldn't be killed or threatened for anything, let alone for just existing. But according to another poster, that's apparently not what I think and I actually think settlers are great 👍🏻🤦🏻‍♀️

It is Netanyahu's Likud policy to expand settlements in the WB, and to avoid a Palestinian state from the sea to the river Jordan. Everyone knows that. Meretz has a more progressive 2 state policy, but I don't think they have any seats in the Knesset.

You "have no idea" but you "sort of suspect" isn't good enough, to be honest. I hope you see that.
Not really* *

Israeli calls for Gaza’s ethnic cleansing are only getting louder
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/01/05/wv-israel-hamas/

Tell me how you know nothing about the politics of the area without telling me.

East Jerusalem is Palestinian territory, as is the West Bank.

All your views @mids2019 are totally one sided and you don’t appear to have a clue about the settler situation and illegally occupied territories.

Blinken is on his way to Israel and other countries in the middle east right now so we may hear more on the US position on 'the day after'

This is what starmer had to say from sky

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has said that Israel should not be the sole party responsible for dictating what happens in the so-called "day after" in Gaza.
Asked about the plans by LBC, Sir Keir said: "We cannot have Israeli occupation, we cannot have people displaced who cannot go back to where they came, because two million have been displaced in the last four months, that is intolerable."
He added: "I don't think, frankly, it is for Israel to determine what happens in Gaza. There has got to be much more international agreement on this, otherwise it simply isn't going to work."
He suggested leaders in Jordan, Qatar and other Arab states should be involved in finding a peace solution and discussing the day after.
He also called once again for a two-state solution.

If anyone is interested sky has also posted today on their live feed, from their military analysts take on Yoav Gallants speech yesterday regarding the day after. I found it quite a informative read