Towards a sustainable peace

[mids2019]

I think for a peace to be obtained constructive dialogue has to be started but in order for this to happen in my opinion Palestine has to acknowledge and their leaders publically denounce the heinous acts of October 7th and make clear such an event will never be repeated.

There have been to many senior Palestinian politicians wishing their grievances to be heard without mentioning October 7th and this will only have the effect of enraging Israel.

We need Palestinian leadership that is willing to sit down with Israeli leaders and from the outset denounce violence specifically making it absolutely clear there will be no 'revenge' for the current Israeli incursion.

We also need to be pragmatic and understand Israel will not be giving Gaza any financial aid so it will be up to the richer gulf states primarily to discuss funding some sort of rebuilding within Gaza. Also eventually there needs to be opportunities for Palestinians to emigrate in order to gain jobs and allow future generations to thrive. I think ultimately you would have to view Gaza as a city state with a multi million rebuilding package coming from those supportive nations in the middle east.

We also need to ensure education in Gaza is such that anti semitiism isn't promoted from a young age so we have a chance for a generation of Palestinians growing up knowing the only way forward is peace.

I think there is a peace to be had if both sides want it and are willing to negotiate positivist with a commitment to prevent terrorism and ensure there is security for both parties.

Should Israel kids continue to be taught that Arabs are bad and deserve to die ?

https://twitter.com/Nimrod_Flash/status/1659205850546974724

shall they continue been taught how to fire a weapon?
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170708-israel-gives-settler-children-firearms-training/amp/
https://www.newarab.com/opinion/ten-year-old-children-israeli-settlers-subjected-weapons-training?amp

shall the kids continue writing their names on shells that will be fired at other countries?

https://fullfact.org/online/children-writing-on-shells-bound-for-lebanon-not-gaza/

youre right … Palestinian kids shouldn’t be taught about hate but once again you lack the overall picture if you want to obtain peace in the area

I wouldn’t say it’s primarily about borders, there’s a lot more factors at play. There’s also the issue that Jerusalem is not just the capital of Israel, it’s also the Palestinian capital and this is a dispute that won’t be easily resolved.

@EasterIssland

I think in any peace process it is important to acknowledge grievances but ultimately set them aside. Despite the horrors of WW2. Including the use of atomic weapons Germany, Japan, the UK and the US have all good relations currently. Peace can happen and must happen ultimately; it is a path we need.currently

the question of illegal segments is a difficult one as you have to ask which law is being applied to make them illegal (I assume an international one). If we are to use international law (and that has its challenges) we would have to respect the I international communities views on stage borders and indeed it will be I international arbiters that would need to oversee the precise nature of the Palestinian state and it's utility provision.

again this come down to state boundaries and governance. Where do you think the Israeli border should be and what is the Israeli obligation to all its neighbours?

Regarding settlements and why they’re illegal
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/01/chapter-3-israeli-settlements-and-international-law/

i say it again … for peace to be obtained then both Countries have to recognise the damage done and both have to get benefits of this peace. In your comments I can only obtain that Palestinians have to recognise the damage and that Israel should obtain as much as they want. This way you might obtain peace but it won’t last for long.

as another posted has highlighted and myself what do you do with Jerusalem being the capital and East Jerusalem/ West Bank?

@Tripper79 .

I agree but every stage is entitled to a capital and so it makes sense as the the seat of government in Israel Jeruslaem is the capital of Israel. It does pose a problem about the governance of a Palestinian state as how can you have a Palstinian capital that is not embedded within its territory? I guess we did have Berlin during the USSR period but ultimately that was a bad model (though I remember Bonn being the western German capital).

If Palestine has a capital in Jeruslam how does governance work as it would have to be done in a remote manner?

There may be possible way forward but it is difficult.

It does pose a problem about the governance of a Palestinian state as how can you have a Palstinian capital that is not embedded within its territory?

Error

feom Wikipedia

East Jerusalem (Arabic: القدس الشرقية, al-Quds ash-Sharqiya; Hebrew: מִזְרַח יְרוּשָׁלַיִם, Mizraḥ Yerushalayim) is the sector of Jerusalem that was held by Jordan after the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, as opposed to the western sector of the city, West Jerusalem, which was held by Israel.[a]Under international law, East Jerusalem is considered a part of the West Bank and, therefore, of the Palestinian territories

so yes . Part of Jerusalem is embedded in the Palestinian territory unless you’re suggesting to wipe out west bank and force them to become Israel

Part of Jerusalem is in Palestinian territory, it’s in the West Bank, why would it have to be remote in any way?!

@EasterIssland

I agree both groups should benefit from peace but in order to support the peace there need to be clear demarcation of land and resources (as referenced by your link to international legal findings on illegal settlement). I think international law will have a big part to play in a finalised settlement that leads to lasting peace and it is up to both sides to recognise the law of the whole international community.

why should the Palestinian people not benefit from peace; certainly it looks like they are not benefiting from war? It is perhaps for the international community to determine how best to economically support Paletinians in the first instance?

@EasterIssland

I was looking at the wrong map sorry.I guess it makes sense then to have a split capital but then the West bank has to have clear bohndaries.

@Tripper79

I didn't realise Jeruslam was partly included in the West bank so I guess a split capital may work. For split capitals and territory I think you do need strong borders and borders do matter not least due to securtiy. Sovreignty is well sovreign.

I guess then that leaves how Gaza would be linked to the West Bank as a functioning state?

Of course Palestinian would benefit from peace. However , it really depends on the restrictions they’re imposed that they will benefit from the peace or not

Gaza and West Bank are Palestine. They’re the same country.

@EasterIssland .

Ok the same country but geographically separate? I guess we have foreign territories such as Gibraltar but there is an element of significant autonomy in reality simply because of governmental reality. For instance Gaza and the West Bank have different elected leaders (perhaps one group chose a little more widely then the other but that is another debate).

Would you have to go through two separate border controls to move between the tparts of the same country?

@EasterIssland .

I guess it means what you mean by restrictions. If you have an autonomous state of is up to you how you trade and mange relationships with your neighbours (that is what states do). Whatbrestrictiins would be placed on Palestine if they had true autonomy?

I think Isreal needs to denounce their genocide in Gaza and apologise to the Palestinians. Perhaps there could one state with equal votes to every citizen, Israeli or Palestinian and everyone can live together as one nation.

@WatTyler

I agree Israel has the perfect right to defend itself as any state does. The eradication of Hamas and it's hard filled ideology has to be an existential priority for the Israeli state currently. That is why in any future governance arrangement including a two state solution security has to be paramount.

@youngones1

if you have a one state solution then PalestinIan would be in a minority and if they accept the democratic ramifications that may work. The government through a one person one vote system would probably be Jewish but if the Palestians would agree to such a n arrangement and there was no internal violence (big if) it may work??

Is part of the problem here that we have a democratic non Muslim state surrounded by countries who question it's legitimacy and quite happily find those willing to kill Israelis as proxies in an on going sub war conflict?

Possibly if you had moderate intelligent Palestinian leadership that wishes fundamentally for peace without the eradication of Israel then you could get off the ground? Improving the Palestinain economic lot and combating the engendered hatred of Jews and Israel are the only ways forward I can see it as just continue a cycle of hate?

Thank you I will have a watch

so We both agree that for this autonomous country to exist Israel shouldn’t have any saying on it and remove any restrictions about who enters in the country / checking as well what enters in the country / will allow water collection / will allow airports and ports (and not destroy them like in the past) , will allow them to have an army ? Israel will have no saying at all? Because Israel’s pm is already saying that they’ll be the ones reviewing the security of the new Palestine …

What I’m talking about is that there will be no blockade in Palestine imposed by Israel like there was before 7-10? Good luck to be honest trying to achieve that. It’s the ideal scenario but I can’t see it happening and Israel being happy about it

You will find your second paragraph applies to Israel too
If you really want peace you can't keep seeing this as one sided as what Palestinians need to concede to, to be able to live peacefully on their own land. It is the Palestinians in the territories that have been living under a brutal Israeli occupation for decades, not the other way round.

Even in the midst of the war Netanyahu has approved illegal settlements to house a further 1700 settlers. Part of the settlements will be built in East Jerusalem.
Knowing that it will hinder the chances of the Palestinian dream of having East Jerusalem as their capital of a future Palestinian sovereign state

Sorry for butting in, but while I agree with you that it applies to Israel too I just wanted to remind you and everyone else on this thread that Israel has been living with a constant threat from the Palestinian territories. Suicide bombers, stabbings, shootings etc. This was also the case already before 1967. Before any occupation. Suicide bombers were probably a later additions but there were plenty of other types of bombings before 1967. So trying to say the fault is all Israel's occupation is just not accurate.

i hope Netanyahu goes soon and a less extremist new PM is in power who would be more open to agreements with a new non-terrorist government in gaza and make live easier for Palestinians and therefore for Israel citizens as well. I don’t think with 2 extremist in power in both countries peace will be ever achieved