Towards a sustainable peace

[mids2019]

I think for a peace to be obtained constructive dialogue has to be started but in order for this to happen in my opinion Palestine has to acknowledge and their leaders publically denounce the heinous acts of October 7th and make clear such an event will never be repeated.

There have been to many senior Palestinian politicians wishing their grievances to be heard without mentioning October 7th and this will only have the effect of enraging Israel.

We need Palestinian leadership that is willing to sit down with Israeli leaders and from the outset denounce violence specifically making it absolutely clear there will be no 'revenge' for the current Israeli incursion.

We also need to be pragmatic and understand Israel will not be giving Gaza any financial aid so it will be up to the richer gulf states primarily to discuss funding some sort of rebuilding within Gaza. Also eventually there needs to be opportunities for Palestinians to emigrate in order to gain jobs and allow future generations to thrive. I think ultimately you would have to view Gaza as a city state with a multi million rebuilding package coming from those supportive nations in the middle east.

We also need to ensure education in Gaza is such that anti semitiism isn't promoted from a young age so we have a chance for a generation of Palestinians growing up knowing the only way forward is peace.

I think there is a peace to be had if both sides want it and are willing to negotiate positivist with a commitment to prevent terrorism and ensure there is security for both parties.

It's not really as straightforward as that, though.

Firstly, in relation to Jerusalem, its status has been argued over for years. East Jerusalem is still considered an occupied territory as well as the capital of a Palestinian state by many countries.

Secondly, if a peace and border agreement did end up with an internationally agreed recognition of Jerusalem in its entirety as the capital of Israel, that's not going to solve things in and of itself.

I think an important first step towards peace is reaching a point where people can accept that other people should have rights too. Rights to live freely in their homes, rights to food and drink and healthcare, rights to safety. And not in a conditional or "well, collateral damage doesn't count" way. Human rights need to be for every human, or it means nothing to try to claim the moral high ground. We're not even at that point yet.

Perhaps we should also add in as a step towards peace that people should stop using hospitals for either target practice or as launching pads for missile attacks.

I understand what you're saying, @Scirocco, but describing what's happening as "using hospitals for target practice" seems to me to be rather minimising what Israel is responding to here (I draw a veil over your interpretation of Israel's intentions).

There's just been yet another strike on a hospital. Waiting to hear if any more of my friends and colleagues are dead. I hope you'll forgive me for being a bit upset, given that I know people there, would trust them with my life and am entirely confident that they are not terrorists.

Regarding a sustainable peace, EU's foreign policy made these remarks which I think he is correct on

I believe that we have learned in these 30 years that the solution has to be imposed from outside because the two parties will never be able to reach an agreement.
If this tragedy doesn’t end soon, the entire Middle East might end up in flames.

I am so very sorry! And, yes, of course you get to be upset and snarky! As much as you want to!

FWIW, I have no friends in Gaza - but I certainly do (as well as former in-laws, whom I still appreciate) in the WB. Including one in prison. I am sitting on needles on a daily basis, hoping he will make it out alive and relatively healthy.

@Scirocco oh no which hospital today? Yesterday there was on the Al Amal hospital and a 5 day old baby was sadly amongst those killed

@HeidiInTheBigCity I hope your friends and family stay safe, it's a horrible time. I think a lot of people overlook that Palestinians and their loved ones are people too.

That's the one, @Parkingt111

I'm so sorry about this.

I don't know how to ask this question without sounding like an ignorant wanker, which I am. And I promise you I am not trying to be goady. I am sincerely trying to understand the situation.

The question, as best I can think to put it, is something like: With Hamas in charge for the past two decades, normal life must have been impossible. What (if any) were their opportunities to leave, and why did they choose to stay?

Not only that, they actively de-humanise Palestinians - not only but most of all Palestinian men (and I say this as a feminist)!

Half of what I hear these days, not just online but even IRL - boils down do "nobody is killing them deliberately - but they deserve it!". Vile fucking shit!

I have "fired" quite a few friends since this war broke out - first among them the one who, literally, came out with "I never liked your ex". Well, guess what?! I did! I married the man, after all! As a matter of fact, I still do like him. We just have incompatible life goals!

@Dibilnik

MSF and PRCS don't leave unless there's no alternative. The people I know would have stayed with their patients to the end. It's what I would have done.

Doctors going in to war zones, occupied territories and the like know there are risks. We go, we take those risks and stay as long as we can because otherwise innocent people die. We know that we can't save everyone, but we can save some. And once October 7th happened, a lot of people knew that, while they'd gone in to Gaza recognising risks, they were now likely to not leave.

Getting out at Rafah was chaos for the few people who got themselves or their families onto the required lists. People were told to go to the crossing, and then the crossing was bombed. People were separated from their loved ones, forced to leave them behind when only selected family members were allowed through. Can you imagine having to leave one child behind in that devastation because you have to get another child out? That's the sort of thing that happened.

Hospitals, ambulances, health care workers and patients seeking care are meant to be protected under international humanitarian law. Respecting that law should be part of moving towards peace.

I despise the people who committed the atrocities of October 7th. I despise the people who organised it and celebrated it. I want the victims and survivors to have justice. I also want justice for the innocent people being killed every day since then, and most of all, I want peace. I don't believe Gaza should become a wasteland and its people killed or displaced in order to achieve those.

Fucking hell, you want to put mines down, yeah that will really bring lasting peace. Sounds like you still want Israel to have all the control, outline the limits, give more fishing rights ( in Gaza’s own waters) allow Palestinians to work in Israel ( why would they want to unless they are desperate)
Oh and I don’t think Israel are in a strong negotiating position at all, hopefully the Hague will sort that out. Israel are in free fall and now going after Lebanon as well.

This !

@Scirocco thank you for this. I don't watch much news on TV or listen to the radio and I tend to avoid online newsfeeds about this whole situation as it's just too upsetting.

I suppose my question is not about medics stuck in the current conflict, but about ordinary civilians choosing (???) to live under Hamas for almost two decades. I get that in the UK we can have a government we didn't choose, whose views we disagree with. What I don't understand is how ordinary people could live under the violent and delusional Hamas regime without actively seeking to leave the country. Is it that this was just not possible for them...?

Again, please don't take this as goady, I am just trying to understand the factors in play for individuals and their lives.

@Dibilnik I need to go just now but I'll come back later this evening and try to answer.

I'm not sure that is Hamas thats primarily responsible for normal life being so hard for Gazans.

The occupation of Gaza began before Hamas was voted in. The oppression of the palestinian people far, far longer than this. Both before Hamas even existed. The oppression of the people isn't because of Hamas, but Hamas was born out of anger of the injustice of the occupation.

It wasn't Hamas that banned chocolate, crayons, specialist baby milks etc. It was Israel. It wasn't Hamas who created a blockade to stop most people leaving. It was Israel. Even where people coughs leave via Rafah, it was at Israel's whim whether they'd ever be able to return home. Also, why should they leave their home? Suggesting that they should have feels a lot like victim blaming to me.

@Dibilnik I will let scirocco answer as you asked her but I hope its OK to add that for many living under Hamas was not much different to living in some of the surrounding countries I.e Egypt or Lebanon
The only major difference was the blockade which has a far worse impact than any other factors

I think people have an impression that living under Hamas means women can't work or are hidden away but it's definitely not the case. Even if you go and look at any video of a hospital taken during the war you will mostly find women doctors and nurses there working along side the men
The population has a very high literacy rate

@Dibilnik

The occupation of Gaza and oppression of its people predated Hamas coming to power, and things then got worse with the blockade.

Pre- October 7th:

Geographically, Gaza is a narrow strip, bordered on 2 sides by Israel, 1 side by Egypt and 1 side by the sea. Palestinian waters are severely limited and people can't leave that way. There are two crossing points for people - one into Israel and one into Egypt - and one crossing just for goods. All entry and exit decisions were overseen by non-Gazan security forces. Once you go in, it's not guaranteed that you get to come out. And once you come out, it's not guaranteed that you get to go back in. People crossing could experience harassment and power trips from security guards. To move patients across the border for essential treatments not available in Gaza would take lengthy approval processes and waiting times, and it wouldn't be unusual for the patient to die before approval came through.

Leaving and moving to a new country longer-term, legally, in most circumstances requires a person to have a visa or to seek asylum. As we can see from what the UK government has been discussing with visa rules, it can be very hard to get a visa to settle in a different country. Some people could get visas for studying or work, but that's not an option for most people, just like it wouldn't be an option for a lot of people in the UK to get visas and permanently relocate to a different country.

People couldn't leave other than at the externally approved checkpoints. The land border between Gaza and Israel had a very high fence and snipers watching over the imposed 'no man's land' on the Gazan side.

Supplies that were allowed in were tightly controlled. Some things that we would consider necessary for health, education and wellbeing were forbidden. For example, some specialist baby milk, crayons for children. For some parents, the only way to get baby milk so that their baby wouldn't die from starvation was to use the black market (which ultimately linked back to Hamas a lot of the time). There is evidence that the calorific/nutritional value of food supplies allowed in was in a range that would avoid starvation but would not meet the nutritional needs of the population (so, if people needed more, they would need to go to the black market). Despite that, there was a population that valued education and work, holding on to their culture, which had a lot in common with other countries in the region.

So, the majority of the population were unable to leave and also aware that if they left, they might not get back home. Gaza has been compared with a prison camp and that's not actually an inaccurate image, and reflects how many young men felt.

Once the Hamas government was established, they consolidated power quickly. Many people didn't like them being in power but there was really nothing they could do. In the UK, if you protest against the government you might get arrested and given a suspended sentence or a fine. In some parts of the world, if you protest against the government you might get shot. Many people disliked things but were too busy with trying to get by day to day with their own lives to have much time to devote to any form of regime change. Other people found themselves reliant on the black market and in financial and emotional debt to the people helping them keep their loved ones alive - it can be hard to sustain hate against the people who you believe saved your baby's life, and it can be hard to resist an instruction from those people if you know that disobedience places your loved ones in danger. And some people, often young men who were frustrated at the lives they were forced into and who perhaps had limited or no experience of life without Hamas, were vulnerable to radicalisation.

I firmly believe that there must be justice for October 7th and that the people responsible should face the full extent of the law. To make Israel, Palestine and the world safer, I do think we need to look in the long-term and ensure that whatever the cessation of hostilities looks like, it includes avoiding perpetuating this cycle of people hating each other.

Ok, rant over. That probably didn't make all that much sense as I'm exhausted and a bit upset, I'm afraid. I try not to post when I'm upset, but I wanted to try to answer your question. I don't know if I did though.

Not really what your post is about but this is one of the videos I use as a resource in school for lessons about children and young people taking responsibility

I just thought of this when I read your post and thought you may like to see it. As it is a teenage girl that shows some girls in Gaza are pretty clever indeed

People need to be taught young about how to treat others and that we are all equal. That way one day there will be a peace that lasts generations

This is Israeli Sesame Street

https://twitter.com/Claire_V0ltaire/status/1735500689449578843

Isn't this all about borders primarily? Israel is a state and will continue to be a state and as such will have well defined borders and a state capital, Jerusalem, as all other states enjoy. I think we can all agree the Israelis have a right to a state and to have peaceful coexistence with their neighbours.

To this end there has to be joint agreement in the Arab world that Israel is not an enemy and has a right to exist. If this general.position is adopted then discussion about state borders between a nascent Palestinian state can begin through a diplomatic exercise and respecting international law (as it stands).

One thing that has to be made clear though is that after October 7th it is entirely understandable that Israel prioritises it's security and has the right to maintain border defences (as all states do) and importantly there is no obligation of aid to Palestine from Israel though you do hope good trading conditions would arise as between the majority of countries in the world.

Again in order to have peace there must be a considered peace process where grievance can be slowly set aside for a new order in that part of the world. We cannot and shouldn't stoke hatred as it was this sense of blind malice that engendered the horrific events of October 7th which cannot be repeated.

@Trulywonderful

optimistic but I agree ultimately.

one thing that has to stop is hatred for other races and continues being embedded in school systems and we have to teach the children of Palestine that Israeli children are good and vice versa. In such a way the Palestinain people will understand the futility of supporting or allowing power for such groups as Hamas.

So settlers … which side of the borders will they stay?
Will they be allowed to live as they pleased in the Palestinian side?
and idf … are they Israel’s or Palestinian? Will they be allowed to arrest , torture , rape and keep forever people from the Palestinian side ?

and West Bank … what rights do they have ?

fibally , Gaza are they allowed to collect water ? How is electricity provided ? And food.? Can people live as they please Gaza? Can they also seek for medical help in West Bank when requested ?

If something is telling me from your op and this comment is that according to you Israel are owed everything and for that Palestinians should disappear and I say it again… this is not the way the peace will be obtained in the area