South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

The entire filing is 84 pages long and, frankly, took me several hours to read - it's well worth the effort, though, in that it is rather (painfully at times) clinical and devastating in equal measure: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Go, South Africa!

It might not male that much of a difference in the short term - but: to see the former victims of Apartheid take the lead on the world stage, and offer support (the way they - after multiple decades of campaigning and pressure ... it's not as though world leaders hated Apartheid South Africa "by default") is just ... a little spark of light within the darkness!

Blinken on another tour of the ME.

"CHANIA, Greece, Jan 6 (Reuters) - Middle Eastern nations need to use their influence over regional actors to ensure the Gaza conflict is contained and prevent "an endless cycle of violence," U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Saturday."

Other ME nations must use their influence to prevent "an endless cycle of violence" whilst the US continues to supply Israel's war on Gaza where most of the violence in the middle east is currently taking place. I'd never make it as a diplomat because I'd probably tell him to fuck off.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/blinken-meet-turkish-greek-leaders-gaza-diplomacy-tour-begins-2024-01-06/

Desertrose2023

Thanks for copying all of that, I'm slowly working my way through the document.

I thought "we will not be able to recruit collaborators" was interesting.

Sorry to disappoint any posters that think Israel are going to be officially condemned and /or labelled as a genocidist country by a respected western country.

Ain't gonna happen.

Ever.

Just catching up here, sorry i haven't read the whole thread.

One thing that stunned me a bit watching the news this week. Though why I'm surprised god knows.

Soooo, America is going to rebuild Gaza when this is all over. There must be an awful lot of people just waiting to make a fortune. It makes you wonder if it was all planned and the deaths on each side have been collateral damage. I never did trust how lax the Israeli security was when hamas attacked, no one could believe it was allowed to happen. And of course the deaths and destruction of gaza has been so over the top no one really understands whats going on. And the USA and UK apparently support it....now there's a ruined country needing rebuilt doncha know....

Its sickening.

@floodlightonwhatisright

If they don’t, then they will lose all respect from most of the globe, countries and NGOs. The west doesn’t have the might to rule by force any more either, so it really should care about how the rest of the world views it and call a spade a spade instead of doing the double speak, hypocrisy tap dance.

Who is the "they"? The West?

The West do not rule by force - what nonsense. What they are is made up of democratic nations who admirably have a much better human right's record especially towards women - something which I would have thought would resonate with posters on MN. Mumsnet - ergo largely (but not exclusively) used by women?

Yes they is referring to “a respected western country.”

These western countries have been ruling by force. They no longer have the capability to rule by force now, even though they still act like they can.

Democracies have done their fair share of genocides, so their human rights records are not pristine.

Feminists should stand up against genocides, especially this one in which 2 mothers are being killed every hour in Gaza.

I would think that would resonate more on Mumsnet. As a mother, it does for me.
https://www.unwomen.org/en/news-stories/feature-story/2023/10/facts-and-figures-women-and-girls-during-the-war-in-gaza

Presumably you don't live in a western country then as you refer to "these western countries?"

I live in a western country.

I don't agree with everything that Bibi says but he is right on the money in this article

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67866342

Latest tweet from the Israeli PM

https://www.google.com/url?q=twitter.com/IsraeliPM/status/1743697971437298165%3Fref_src%3Dtwsrc%255Egoogle%257Ctwcamp%255Eserp%257Ctwgr%255Etweet&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjIsp7SmcqDAxXaQkEAHdZIDdMQglR6BAgGEAQ&usg=AOvVaw13QaOkDf2pDxSZUB_kB9mG

I quite agree with this

Yes. And surprisingly balanced from the BBC.

It will be interesting to see what comes out of Blinken’s latest visit. His previous ones haven’t appeared to be resounding successes, whatever their rhetoric about being able to influence the situation in ME.

There appears to be a lot of manoeuvring politically with the expansion of the BRICS. I saw a suggestion on X that SA may have been chosen out of the BRICS to submit the genocide case on behalf of BRICS following them chairing at a meeting about the bombardment of Gaza late last year. The argument appeared to SA best placed geopolitically to submit the case and also has a history of apartheid.

I wonder if migration is voluntary if you bomb and starve and intimidate people to the extent that is going on. And involuntary migration or population transfer is ethnic cleansing.
So now Netanyahu hopes to arrange “voluntary” migration to the Congo…
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-in-talks-with-congo-and-other-countries-on-gaza-voluntary-migration-plan/

www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/7/blinken-says-palestinians-displaced-in-gaza-must-be-able-to-return-home

I believe Israel claimed they were in talks with DR Congo, Rwanda and one other country (sorry can't remember which one) and all three denied it. I'm not sure who is telling the truth but it doesn't look like a feasible plan and the denials are a bit awkward for Israel.

Any country agreeing to such a plan must know they will be facilitating ethnic cleansing.

www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240105-d-r-congo-denies-talks-with-israel-to-welcome-palestinian-migrants/

I need to catch up on the thread too, but wanted to pop by and post this article from the U.K. Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2024/jan/07/uk-accused-of-hypocrisy-in-not-backing-claim-of-genocide-in-gaza-before-icj

”The UK is facing accusations of double standards after formally submitting detailed legal arguments to the international court of justice in The Hague six weeks ago to support claims that Myanmar committed genocide against the Rohingya ethnic group through its mass mistreatment of children and systematically depriving people of their homes and food.

The UK made its 21-page “declaration of intervention” jointly with five other countries, but it is not supporting South Africa as it prepares to try to convince the ICJ on Thursday that Israel is at risk of committing genocide against the Palestinian people.

The UK submission on Myanmar argues there is a lower threshold for determining genocide if the damage has been inflicted on children as opposed to adults. The submission said other actions that could be defined as genocidal, if systematic, include forced displacement from homes, deprivation of medical services and the imposition of subsistence diets.
It argues that given declarations of intent to commit genocide are rare, the court’s test should not solely be explicit statements or numbers killed, but reasonable inference drawn from a pattern of conduct and factual evidence….”

”Tayab Ali, the head of international law at Bindmans, said the significance of the UK’s submission on Myanmar “lay in showing the importance the UK attaches to adherence to the [UN] Genocide Convention and in showing the UK took a wide, and not a narrow, definition of acts of genocide, and the intent to commit genocide. It also made clear that the court should take into account risks to life after a ceasefire caused by disabilities, inability to reside in their homes and wider injustices.

“It would be wholly disingenuous if the UK, six week after advancing such a significant and broad definition of genocide in the case of Myanmar, now adopts a narrow one in the case of Israel.”

South Africa is likely to highlight the UK’s arguments about Myanmar, submitted in conjunction with Canada, Germany, Denmark, France and the Netherlands, when it makes its high-stakes accusation of genocide against Israel….”
more if you follow the link

Glad the UK government is being called out on their hypocrisy. If only they could be referred to the ICJ for complicity in genocide, article 3 in the convention, they bloody deserve it. Somehow Blair dodge a date with the Hague so I can't see Sunak being held to account - doesn't stop me hoping justice might be served one day.

Same here. I’ve just read the whole thread now and it’s very apropos as a poster earlier had comments the gist of which where : ‘Whyhas no one condemned Myanamar? Why is it only Israel that is getting flak implying South Africa are AntiSemites?’ (I am paraphrasing)

I think we know that this poster was unaware that the U.K., Canada, Germany, Denmark, France and the Netherlands had already filed a genocide case with the ICJ. Sinks their allegation like a lead balloon.

All a very moot point as the borders are tightly controlled and so there is no way for anyone to leave currently.

Additional Israeli judge added to panel

Israel has named its former supreme court president Aharon Barak as its addition to the international court of justice (ICJ) panel scheduled to hear a genocide allegation filed against it this week, an Israeli official said.

Under the ICJ’s rules a state that does not have a judge of its nationality already on the bench can choose an ad hoc judge to sit in their case, Reuters reports.

I said that Gazans are not an ethnic group but Palestinians are. If you understand Middle Eastern history though you can see that Palestinians considered themselves as Arabs. Palestine also included Jordan. Palestinians and Jordanians do not consider themselves different ethnic groups.

In Middle Eastern history Turks had a genocide against Armenians, and they also denied the Kurds the right to their own culture and language. That is why they want to accuse Israel of genocide.

I'm stealing a post from another thread (the Nakba thread) from someone who clearly has Palestinian heritage and therefore is better qualified to comment than either of us

Firstly I would respectfully ask that you refer to Palestinians and not the more generic “Arab”. Palestinians are proud to be Arab but they are also a group of people with their own culture, heritage and identity. It’s why it’s considered offensive to Palestinians when some people suggest that they should just be “absorbed” by Egypt, Jordan or the Gulf states and that’s a solution to the “problem”. Arabs are not just one big monolith that can be lumped together. Nor should they be.

Of course they’d bring Aharon Barak out of retirement. He’s known for several rulings contrary to International Humanitarian Law and the ICJ. Such as the law he drafted making IDF immune from paying compensation to any innocent Palestinians for damages to their person or property (or to family if they are killed by IDF). There was also his refusal to accept the ICJ security fence ruling in 2004 prior to Israel walling in Gaza.